Regarding its inability to perform as a true world church is, I believe, the church’s genuine American history and leadership base, and the Americans’ general (can’t speak for everyone, of course, but trust me on this one) inabilty to function in an international setting, as well as Americans’ generally startling ignorance that there is a world beyond their own borders. And that maybe people think and act differently beyond those borders. Ach, nein! D’oh!, kann das eigentlich wahr sein? Vraiment? Porca madonna! Different languages AND different thought patterns?!

Obviously I’m waxing cynical, for which I beg forgiveness. But the inability of the American-based square-peg-in-a-round-hole mentality to adopt and to adapt to other cultures, or to consciously prevent the church from adapting to other cultures, as it were, just inserts a great spanner into the works, and causes all kinds of bad feelings. These bad feelings are more openly voiced in other western cultures where people are world-savvy and more prone to speak out. The Germans, for instance, really resented visiting Americans who tried to inflict Utah on Frankfurt, and let everyone know it. The bewildered Congolese just stare blankly.

It’s so sad on Sundays to see the impoverished and under-educated Congolese trudge though such foreign and contrived territory, and to see–at least on Sundays–their culture snuffed out in order to better squeeze themselves into that oddly shaped hole, all due to a church that values its American roots more than the roots of any others. Dommage. In their weak and vain effort to come off as a “world church,” it’s no wonder people are using the cynical “TSCC.”

Thanks. You’re very kind.
tweedmeister

Seems dead now -since mormon stories keeps going.

When’s the funeral?

Long live Mormon Matters!

English is more of the ‘international language’ for the church, as it is for finance and air traffic control and diplomacy etc etc. (must be because English is such a simple and basic language!….j/k…………)

Notice that today all GA’s from non-english speaking countries (Mexico, Germany, Ecuador, Brazil, Argentina,…) deliver their GConference talks in English. Also note that ‘Preach my Gospel’ actually pressures missionaries to learn English during their missions.

And, although I personally would prefer to see more Area Presidencies made up with locals, I don’t have a problem with the continuation of the US/SLC domination of church power. After all, those who founded the church and gave so much to it and suffered so much in the Mormon exodus and in building a state in the dessert, they actually deserve a lot more than, say, the members who joined the church in the post war era. All the people I know who where baptized in Latin America never went through anything like what the early Mormons did in Missouri or Nauvoo…..-those pioneers where a breed apart. After all being ridiculed for not drinking wine just isn’t the same as losing your kids in the snow in Wyoming or somewhere.

So those pioneers, I think, have a case in asking God to let the church stay in their descendents hands, the majority of the church or the ‘Power of this Church’ as you put it. Or the opposite could also be true, that God sends most future GA’s to US families to honour the pioneers sacrifices.There may be an odd apostle or two who isn’t a pioneer descendant, like Utchdorf, but the majority will be, for me, at least until the second coming.

I also noticed this visiting New Zealand where even the old tribal Pahs had pictures of the prophets and activities would be held at various pahs. I have heard there is more leeway with saints in Tonga and that they only meet for two hour blocks. Anyone else notice this?

Sorry, but I can’t fathom that some day GC addresses will be natively spoken in Spanish with English translations. If Spanish speakers make up such a large percentage of membership already, where are the proportionate non-American Spanish speaking GA’s? No disrespect to non-English speakers, but the power of this church is in SLC and that’s where it’s going to forever be. Not that I care either way, but that’s the true reality.

LiP

asking hellmut if he had read it had nothing whatsoever to do with my confidence in your reading ability. not at all. i just happen to have corresponded with hellmut for many years and trust his judgment on things, particularly cultural issues related to europe and germany. despite your confidence in official translations, i think that at times words and meanings, while perfectly translated, lose context. sect and cult, for all i know, have vastly different levels of severity in their translated equivalents. relax young pal. i was not insulting you.

i made no assumption about you lying and for hell’s sake i never accused you of lying. i do think that you, on the other hand, made a huge assumption in your question and its less than subtle accusation.

john f, you are exactly right about my claims regarding labels, specifically “anti mormon” and the equivalent use of the word “cult.” (despite my own use of the term as you have seen.) this will be a difficult balance to explain.

cults have been studied and described by many groups, including states and scientists. within certain groups, there are agreed standards for determining what is a cult. admittedly, all those standards are not the same for all groups. it can become very subjective. just as alcoholics anonymous has been described as a cult based on the standards of measurement, i suspect there are certain aspects of mormonism that would meet those same standards.

i do not think that i have ever ever ever condoned the classification of the church as a harmful sect. if i have, please point that out, please. what i have done is ask – what were the standards that were used in making that determination. if you and others are going to reject the label, i would like to know why. thats all.

how does it compare to the anti-mormon label? hellifino. there are no standards for that label, other than arbitrary use of the word to describe anyone that wasnt at a mormon church last sunday. oaks described the forces behind the holocaust as being the same that are behind the critics of the church and the forces that chased the mormons out of missouri. so, i suspect anti-mormonism can be anything you want it to be.

finally, to the top. the legislature.

john f, you and i do not agree here. that example showed that the legislature would rather let people die than give them an immunization. and the reason they would rather have them die – they might have sex if we give them the vaccine. first of all, its just not proven that sex acts would increase if young women were vaccinated. secondly, while that was not a comprehensive report i posted, you can certainly examine the subject further to see that the judeo-christian, majority mormon representatives in the legislature were greatly biased by their own faith and that of their constituents.

i am not going to try and convince you of this. i simply point out that legislatures make choices and i consider the choice to not fund a cancer vaccine to be a significantly greater issue than the choice to label a church as a sect (especially when the standards for that label may be harmless.) in fact, one i would say is blatanly evil and potentially fatal and the other is nothing more than a nuisance, even if it is wrong.

and all this was posted in response to your comparison of utah and germany, which was first suggested in hellmuts post.

do you understand?

On another point, in other discussions you have argued forcefully against Latter-day Saints labelling people who are criticizing Mormons and their beliefs as “anti-mormons” or describing people who no longer believe in the truth claims of the Church as having “fallen away from the Church” based on the argument that it inhibits or completely shuts down discussion because it places people in a box from the outset of the discussion. It seems that this argument does not bring you to the same conclusion with labelling the Church a “cult” or “harmful sectarian organization”. I would be interested to know why not.

With regard to your question to Hellmut about whether he has had the opportunity to read the German version of these documents, I would also be interested to know the reason for that question. I provided a link to the English translation of the German Final Report. That’s the official English translation done by the German Parliament, so you can read the document yourself. Your question to Hellmut implies that you think I am lying or being somehow deceitfult about the contents of the German-language documents at issue here. If that is the case, my question would be why you would assume that I am lying about something.

Utah is off the charts when it comes to intolerance John. Dangerously intolerant. In fact, the government of Utah is willing to risk the public health in general and individual health because of a religious bias. want proof? check this out –

=============
On Wednesday, the Utah Department of Health announced a $1 million gift to fund a public awareness campaign about the STD human papillomavirus (HPV) and its link to cervical cancer. The money, from industrialist Jon Huntsman Sr., will also go to purchase the HPV vaccine Gardasil for females.

It is the second time in two years that private benefactors have financed public health concerns that the state Legislature has declined to address. Last year, after lawmakers cut the Medicaid dental program, James Sorenson and Intermountain Healthcare gave $1 million each to provide care to the poor and disabled.

Rep. Karen Morgan (D-Salt Lake City) had asked the Legislature to spend $1 million to raise public awareness about HPV and provide Gardasil to under- and un-insured females. Fearing the vaccine would increase promiscuity, the lawmakers allotted only $25,000 for the effort. Morgan said she hoped Huntsman’s gift would show the Legislature “how great a need” there is for HPV education and Gardasil. She plans to ask the state for $1 million to $2 million next year.

An advisory committee, including Hunstman, doctors, and health department employees, will determine how the money will be spent and which age group to target for vaccination. David Sundwall, executive director of the health department, said the committee must be sensitive so as not to give the impression that early sexual activity is advisable. However, he noted, “It’s absolutely irresponsible if we assume young people in Utah aren’t having sex.”
==============

john f, with all due respect, i dont think the discrimination effect is too great for members of a listed church when someone even as interested as you cant even answer what standards were or were not met in order to get on the list. in my opinion, it doesnt come close to a legislature refusing to fund a cancer vaccine based on their religious bias and deference to the leaders of a local religious institution.

have you had a chance to read the german version of these documents?

re # 21, On the other hand, even the worst stories that I have heard about the discrimination of Mormons in Germany do not compare for the difficulties that, lets say a feminist teacher, will encounter in Utah. Utah is a much less hospitable region when it comes to religious differences.

As much as I love Germany, I don’t agree with this. Germany is far less tolerant of religions and religious differences than Utah. Of course, Germany is entirely tolerant of religious differences if the religions at issue are Catholicism of Lutheranism.

Mormons who are less competent in bureaucratic environments might suffer serious discrimination. German state and society provide considerable resources with respect to minorities’ liberty but if you lack the ability to use them then your situation can be dire.

Bingo. That is the crux of the problem. Where the state is making life difficult for people through giving bureacrats discretion to express their intolerance toward other people’s religious affiliations/beliefs, and those bureaucrats do that or are even encouraged to do that (through such things as lists labelling religions as cults or harmful sectarian organizations) then there is a serious problem.

I do think, however, that there is a role for government in the regulation of religion. For example, it was great when a state court convicted Warren Jeffs as an accomplice of rape on Tuesday. By the same token, religious organizations ought to be responsible for the products that they market.

If a religion proclaims to market medical remedies, for example, then they ought to pass the same standards as any other business. If a religion sells products then it is subject to consumer protection and liability law.

If there is a concerted effort to eschew accountability by a group of religiously motivated people then the challenge of organized crime confronts society and the government has an obligation to respond accordingly. That includes nationwide criminal investigation and court reviewed surveillance.

I never had a problem as a Mormon in Germany. I did hear stories about other people. Apparently, in the seventies there was a Mormon elementary school teacher in Rheno-Palatia who was admonished to only teach Catholic religious concepts. If that is true, it would have been blatantly unconstitutional.

Although I can report that story only as hearsay, it is plausible that something like that would have happened and I would not be surprised if similar events continue to occur today.

On the other hand, even the worst stories that I have heard about the discrimination of Mormons in Germany do not compare for the difficulties that, lets say a feminist teacher, will encounter in Utah. Utah is a much less hospitable region when it comes to religious differences.

I did encounter some resistance in Germany but have always been able to deflect that within minutes. Although I am not a lawyer, I am pretty comfortable operating in bureaucratic environments and using rules, regulations, and the law to defend my liberty.

Mormons who are less competent in bureaucratic environments might suffer serious discrimination. German state and society provide considerable resources with respect to minorities’ liberty but if you lack the ability to use them then your situation can be dire.

As everywhere else in the world, being right and getting your rights are not the same thing. Rights are ultimately a matter of power.

I started reading through the report – I could not find were it calls out the LDS church specifically. Is it rapped under Fundamental Christianity?

I have a difficult time accepting their conclusions because of the comments I made in my previous post. I am also biased because of my membership in the church. It is in fact too easy for me to disregard this report because of the methods and process of its creation – I also don’t speak German so it is impossible for me to actually read the report

There was an open letter from some prominent German professors giving 10 points in there objection to the report it can be found here

http://www.cesnur.org/testi/SixProfessors.htm

I hope that helps – I am not sure if John F. can read German so I will let him answer for himself