kinda makes you wonder….

kinda makes you wonder….

kinda makes you wonder….

When you say take the scriptures literally, I hope you don’t mean to include the Levitical injunctions to stone to death disobedient children? Isn’t that as nonsensical as thinking that Eve’s body was refashioned from Adam’s rib?

Do you take the Song of Solomon and the Psalms literally too? I think you may have fallen into the trap, at least as far as the Old Testament goes, of reading what was originally Hebrew poetry as literal because the King James translators rendered it as English prose.

I concede your point that the New Testament may be a different story in terms of pushing the symbolism envelope too far, but I think a critical reader will not be straight-jacketed by ancient pre-scientific texts’ accounts of the world.

This phrase makes me think you doubt Jesus raising the dead, or His own resurrection. Did a legion of unclean spirits enter into a heard of pigs that then drowned themselves in the sea? Do men, through the priesthood and in the name of Jesus, heal the sick? Did the flood actually happen?

I think it is safer to take the scriptures literally. The moon may never actually turn to blood and the earth may not actually roll up like a scroll, but if my doubts about those things causes me doubt things like a literal resurrection, then I will opt to believe it all and wait and see.

I think Lehi answered Matt when he said,
” 16 Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other.
17 And I, Lehi, according to the things which I have read, must needs suppose that an angel of God, according to that which is written, had fallen from heaven; wherefore, he became a devil, having sought that which was evil before God.
18 And because he had fallen from heaven, and had become miserable forever, he sought also the misery of all mankind. Wherefore, he said unto Eve, yea, even that old serpent, who is the devil, who is the father of all lies, wherefore he said: Partake of the forbidden fruit, and ye shall not die, but ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.” (2 Nephi 2)

Man must be enticed to do evil (or good), and a fallen angel did in fact become the buggy man. Not that we are somehow less responsible because we are tempted, instead I mean to illustrate that their is an intelligent person (the opposite of God) with a plan (opposite to the Plan of Salvation) to destroy the souls of men. His actions are deliberate, designed, and all to often effective.

http://books.google.com/books?id=h5MNAAAAYAAJ&dq=mahon&pg=PA21&lpg=PA21&ots=_vebwWa0al&sig=ikTP2CCIP_EYa7QrqH_aG_R7E7w

As for a Scriptural connection between Mahan and its Irish translation to “the wild beast of the field”, we need go no further than Genesis in Joseph Smith’s Translation (chapter V):

16 And Cain said, Truly I am Mahan, the master of this great secret, that I may murder and get gain. Wherefore Cain was called Master Mahan; and he gloried in his wickedness.

17 And Cain went into the field, and Cain talked with Abel his brother; and it came to pass, that while they were in the field, Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

As for the LDS being a target of infiltration, there are at least a few sources online, but Bill Schnoebelen talks about it in this Google Video at about 20 minutes in (and not that Prophecy Club or Mr. Schnoebelen are cool or anything [in fact, they're staunchly anti-Mormon], but this is the only easily found reference I can think of on short notice):

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2134284036772812990

(I apologize for spamming the thread, I tried to post this as one, but my comment got caught up in moderation.)

Joseph Smith would have received a better education at home than he could have received at Harvard (har-bard) at the time. He would have been taught many things of which you and I have never heard, including the stories of the Mahon families (which I have yet to uncover much about, aside from their pedigrees and the condensed histories contained therein).

Many of Joseph Smith’s associates were descended from allied and even rival Irish dynastic families, and Joseph likely knew more about these people and their families than they knew themselves. For example, James J. Strang descends from Sreng of Connaught, a great Fir Bolg leader. The Masonic Orders have always been for the Royal Families and no one else, just read about the Royal Order of H.R.D.M., where a Master Mason is elevated from the Blue Lodges and initiated as a Brother of the Royal Orders. Interestingly, Strang became America’s only Monarch when he was crowned King by the Illuminati at Voree, Wisconsin, in a Lodge of such distinction.

Mahan comes from Mathghabhuin — “magh”: Irish, a plain; “gabhuin”: a calf — “‘the bear of the plain’ or ‘a wild calf’; for a bear is strictly a kind of wild calf”. There are two different Mahan families from Ireland: one of Munster, and one of Ulster — but these days the family is spread throughout Europe, having been involved in the governments of England and France. See the MacMahon family pedigrees in John O’Hart’s “Irish pedigrees; or, The origin and stem of the Irish nation,” 1st and 2nd series. The stem of the Royal Family is documented in the 1st series, later branches of the families are documented in the 2nd series.

Joseph Smith, Jr., was raised in the bardic family of Clan King (Joseph Smith is really Joseph M’Gowan). Incidentally, as an O’Moore, I am descended from the princely family of Clan King.

http://books.google.com/books?id=h5MNAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&ots=_vebwWa0al&sig=ikTP2CCIP_EYa7QrqH_aG_R7E7w

Mahan comes from Mathghabhuin — “magh”: Irish, a plain; “gabhuin”: a calf — “‘the bear of the plain’ or ‘a wild calf’; for a bear is strictly a kind of wild calf”. There are two different Mahan families from Ireland: one of Munster, and one of Ulster — but these days the family is spread throughout Europe, having been involved in the governments of England and France. See the MacMahon family pedigrees in John O’Hart’s “Irish pedigrees; or, The origin and stem of the Irish nation,” 1st and 2nd series. The stem of the Royal Family is documented in the 1st series, later branches of the families are documented in the 2nd series.

Joseph Smith, Jr., was raised in the bardic family of Clan King (Joseph Smith is really Joseph M’Gowan). Incidentally, as an O’Moore, I am descended from the princely family of Clan King.

http://books.google.com/books?id=h5MNAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&ots=_vebwWa0al&sig=ikTP2CCIP_EYa7QrqH_aG_R7E7w

Joseph would have received a better education at home than he could have received at Harvard (har-bard) at the time. He would have been taught many things of which you and I have never heard, including the stories of the Mahon families (which I have yet to uncover much about, aside from their pedigrees and the condensed histories contained therein).

Many of Joseph Smith’s associates were descended from allied and even rival Irish dynastic families, and Joseph likely knew more about these people and their families than they knew themselves. For example, James J. Strang descends from Sreng of Connaught, a great Fir Bolg leader. The Masonic Orders have always been for the Royal Families and no one else, just read about the Royal Order of H.R.D.M., where a Master Mason is elevated from the Blue Lodges and initiated as a Brother of the Royal Orders. Interestingly, Strang became America’s only Monarch when he was crowned King by the Illuminati at Voree, Wisconsin, in a Lodge of such distinction.

As for the LDS being a target of infiltration, there are many sources online, but I think I remember Bill Schnoebelen talking about it this Google Video (not that Prophecy Club is cool or anything, but this is the only easily found reference I can think of on short notice):

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2134284036772812990

Do you have any links or any documentation for that claim that the LDS is one of the most infiltrated by occultists? Not that I’m challenging your assertion, but I am seriously curious to know the source of your info in order to read up more on that.

Yes, something like that. Haha!

This stuff about sorcerers, witchcraft, and magic is certainly applicable to our day. Paganism, wicca, and druidism are most certainly on the rise, especially within fringe elements of Judaism and Unitarian-Universalism. This stuff is not just Buffy the Vampire Slayer fiction that goth Mormon girls just love and eat up. This stuff is for real.

Sure, I agree with all scientific-minded folk in these posts that magic is self-deception, that it is fake, that its artifacts relate more to the power of psychology than to the power of the devil… But this isn’t about what WE believe, it is about what THEY believe — and the people involved in witchcraft, Satanism, and other dualistic occult modalities actually believe this stuff is for real — and I actually believe that they are indeed being deceived by the “evil one”. These people really do believe they possess magical powers or that they can command and control demons and spirits, etc.

Anyone who has studied Irish genealogy might know what I’m talking about, where Paganism is a perversion of the genealogical history… But let’s not get into Joseph Smith’s descent from the bards and historiographers of Clan King and the O’Connors, or the bloodline of Mahan “the wild beast of the field” whose family keeps a great secret, etc., etc.

But, hey, I’ve just had a lot of friends involved in all this silliness. One of my roommates used to be O.T.O. (she tells a very interesting story about summoning the demon Dantelion), and a friend’s father is a local Jewish-Pagan-Satanic cult leader, and so on.

Maybe we just have more of this crap in Kansas City because Satan hopes to delay the establishment of Zion?? *wink*

Did I get it right?

I remember being introduced to that explanation about forty years ago or so.

I think our modern witches and wizards are our lawyers, wonder drugs, and governmental programs that we think will fix all of our problems–especially when our problems have been caused by us. We don’t want to take respnosibility for our choices, and repent, so we rely upon the wisdom of man and whatever he peddles to make it right. Just as in old times, these wonders can be used for good or ill. It’s the intent that makes the difference.

And what about the stone in the hat, doesn’t that require a certain amount of magic?