http://www.mudrow.org/Herb/FKM1.html

Some for a chance to frolic in sins of the flesh,

Those whose estrangement from the fold is merely a question of lifestyle — not actual disbelief — are jack-Mormons, not apostates. Please see the handy guide to different types of Mormons.

b. And then there’s “posttraumatic embitterment disorder” (PTED), described in an article by in the 1/08 issue of _Psychotherapy and Psychosomatics_. “The term ‘posttraumatic embitterment disorder’ (PTED) was recently introduced to describe a subtype of adjustment disorders, characterized by prolonged embitterment, severe additional psychopathological symptoms and great impairment in most areas of life in reaction to a severe negative but not life threatening event.” See “When Stress Makes You Bitter: The Embitterment Disorder,” at http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/94538.php .

Ha! Touche’!

Now you’ve got me thinking of people I knew who said they would never come back …

Hope to see you back some day Nick

#32 Mormon Heretic, I also baptized someone like that, but they aren’t ‘apostates’ at all. I think they see the light for the first time and compare it with what they get from all the anti-mormon literature and see the differences.

But apostasy may be a different matter all together. People like Deconstructor or Infymus who fight to see the downfall of the LDS church after having been faithful members, who now call the spirit just emotional ‘feel well’. I’ve never seem one of those return. And is an ‘apostate’ is classified as ‘a son of perdition’ well then by definition they will never return!

I think we shouldn’t be so liberal with the use of this ‘apostate’ label.

Even from a faithful LDS standpoint, Jeremy, it’s simply unwise to assume we will “never” change our views. If we allow ourselves to be so certain, we tend to become complacent, and frankly, complacency doesn’t do much to preserve or promote religious faith.

What is the point of such a comment? You’re doing nothing constructive here, and rarely do you do so anywhere on the Bloggernacle. I’m really curious as to why you keep posting on so many blogs. What do you get out of this?

so, not only are you and your ilk claiming exclusivity on “all truth,” but now it now sounds like your claiming exclusivity on “pure goodness and love.”

If you, “…belong primarily because of the goodness and love I both receive and am able to give within the Church…” why on earth would someone have to join the your [LDS] faith.

If its “goodness and love” (as Rx’d in the Savior’s Sermon per your interpretation) then could not mankind seek/receive it at any religious institution, fraternity, club, or even on a mountain peak or forest grove in upstate NY by one’s self?

tell me what “truthfullness” do you [LDS] claim different than my neighbor [Presbyterian] who like you in the form of “goodness and love” fraternizes with hand-shakes, hugs, and talk of BYU/UofU football during sunday services?

If i wanted to study and understand the truths contained in the King Follet discourses, all i would have to do is particapate in “goodness and love?” so, by applying your “hug theory” i will be able to grasp the quantum field theory.

you see i’m the guy (like other Truth-seekers), who after sacrament meeting and on my way to gospel doctrine class, has to elbow my way through your loud little cliquish groups congesting the hall-way after my reverent salutation followed by a “pardon me” are drowned out.

i attend church to 1.) renew my covenants and 2.) seek truth. I believe “goodness and love,” otherwise known as the “light of Christ” are programmed into every human and that it does not take the environs of a religious institution to be neighborly and human.

the days to apostasy are numbered for those who stand up and say “I like to bear my testimony…Andrew opened the door for me today, shook my hand, and hugged me…therefore, i know the church is true.” whats going to happen to their “religious self-esteem” on the day you dont acknowlege her?

a good portion of my neighbors are “apostates.” being an unorthodox mormon, i am rather social and open with them. while not suprised, a few have admited that while active in the church it was the social behavior (or lack thereof) that was the catalyst to their leaving.

the reality for thomas and oliver was bleak after leaving the church. because they had dedicated a portion of there life in building up the kingdom, the world new it and hated them. Afterwhich, it was practically impossible for them to sit down with a non-mormon and have a beer, socialize, revel in “goodness and love” and to even function in society. ostrisized by mormons and hated by everyone else and being no ‘john muir / jedadiah smith’ type-of characters, they most likely couldnt handle the isolation. So they honorably swallowed their pride and returned.

i believe a true ex-apostate would be considered a contribution to the church as a whole if they returned with the intention of seeking truth and not for social reasons.

Just a thought. If you want people who leave and come back, make sure they leave for the right reasons!

Wow. I used to say the same thing!

On my mission, we taught a teen who wanted badly to join the church, but her mother was against the church. I had heard terrible things about this mother. She had read every anti-mormon book there was, and was quite well-versed into why mormons were not christian.

Well, I ended up baptizing this mother. Now you may say that she is not an apostate, because she was never a member. However, she knew all the anti-mormon literature previous to her baptism, and in most ways would fit the category of an apostate. So, what I’m saying is that it is possible for a true ‘apostate’ (ie someone who is vehemently against the church) to change their mind and join. This particular sister is one of the strongest, most valaint members some 20 years later, that most people can’t believe she isn’t a lifetime mormon.

I am not speaking against having strong feelings, but it seems the personality, emotional make up of some folks lends itself to those actions.

I also don’t think that we give enough credit to the Holy Ghost’s influence in our lives. Losing the Spirit can have a devastating effect on people. While there are some here who will argue against the fact that they might have lost the Spirit on their way out of the church, I have noticed the distinct differance in people who were once active who are either not active or not in the church at all.

I’d only add that maybe we need to distinguish more between ‘apostate’, who fights the church and seeks its downfall, and the just ‘inactive’ who may be inactive for whatever reason but doesn’t want to see the church destroyed. Because I for one still haven’t seen a true ‘apostate’ return to church.

As a young man of 15, then 16, 17 and 18, I had a good friend, who I will simply call J. J had been a member, served a mission, and then left the church. Because of various misdeeds and an unwillingness to repent, J had been excommunicated. All before I met him. By the time I met J, he was about 28, had married D who was not a member of the church. D and J moved to where I grew up and at some point D met the missionaries and joined the church. This led J on his long and difficult road back into the church. I remember when he was rebaptized. Furthermore I remember when he had a restoration of temple and priesthood blessings. What most impressed me was the length and difficulty of his J’s journey back to fellowship in the church. It impressed me that he was not only able to make that journey, but that he wanted to. It was long, difficult and very heart wrenching for him. We were very close at the time, and he helped me through some difficult teen years as well.

Another story. My own father, fresh out of high school, as I recall the story, was a bit rebellious. He decided to join the Army. At some point I believe he went through the temple or was ordained to the Melchizidek (I’m a bit unclear of the specifics, and since he’s no longer around, I cannot ask him). In either case, while off in the Army, he did more than a few things that were not entirely appropriate. Then he broke his leg while stationed in Hawaii, and while the rest of his unit got shipped off to war, he stayed behind. Eventually he finished his tour of duty, and returned to Idaho. In 55, at age 23 he finally was able to go on a mission, because he had turned his life around enough to do so. He had to quit a few habits, and when he got to the mission home in SLC, he had a few interviews with a number of the GA’s, including some of the 12, to make sure he was really worthy. This was, I think, in part due to the fact that there had been a German woman he had nearly married while stationed there in Germany. I don’t know the details, but…

Finally, a last story, more recent. I know a brother who is currently a second counselor in a stake presidency. I’ll call him M. M is a sociologist, and taught sociology for some years before retiring. During his career, much of his research focused on human sexual behavior, and for many years he had left the church, although he never withdrew his name from the records and he was never excommunicated. But he definitely did not believe. M said that because of his research and his reliance on that philosophy, he had quit trusting in the Spirit. He is now one of the most spiritually minded individuals that I know. In his seventies, he recently had a liver transplant with one of the fastest recoveries I have ever heard of–within six weeks he was back at church in good health. The doctors had seriously considered refusing to do the operation because of his age and potential for complications.

So, while I don’t think that anyone should go out and leave the church with a plan to come back years later, I think the real lesson is that anyone can come back to the church, and that we should never give up hope, always treat everyone with love, respect and decency, and never make our treatment of them dependent on their actions with regards to the church. It is pretty simple, really. The best way to get people to come into the church is also the best way to get them to come back to the church: to be their close, honest, and real friend. It also happens to be the best way to keep people in the church in the first place. As long as we treat each other with real, honest, open and true friendship, then it doesn’t matter if the other person comes back–we have done our part, and their actions will be their own responsibility.

As the scripture says: “Love unfeigned.” Nothing could be more plain.

As far as innoculation goes, I think it is absolutely correct. It does go a very long way to saying, look, this guy has been out of the church, he knows the counter arguments, if you have doubts, talk to him, he will work with you on resolving them. I think the youth of the church need to know that the adults have had doubts and have wrestled with the fears they face and that it is okay to wonder. I also think that they need to know that just because you are wondering doesn’t mean you need to quit coming to church.

Stephen, great post and interesting way to look at the issue. Thanks.

I knew a couple ex-apostates growing up and one in one of my favorite wards in my mission. There is also one in my current ward who is on his way back in, so this is still happening. Of course, you weren’t really arguing that it isn’t happening anymore but rather that the nature of our economy and lives has changed in that we aren’t as geographically stable as we used to be. We don’t buy a house after college in a neighborhood and stay there until retirement. It’s unfortunate in many more ways than just not getting the full “village effect” that such a lifestyle provides in old-fashioned, established wards.

Bob H, all I can say is I wish you well.

I wish that I knew more people who had experienced the same problems with the church that I am currently experiencing and came back. I can find a few here and there on the blogs, but in real life, I really have no one to talk to.