Let’s get out of scouting.. incorporate what’s important into the Duty to God. I don’t discount the scouting activities — many of the activies are still important. However, we need a program that is separate from the required badge mentality. Leaders need to be able to mold activities around the dynamics of group members.. rather than being forced to meet requirements that may exclude the non-interested or inactive members.

(former Eagle Scout, current YM counselor)

Part of that is poor training of leaders, turn-over of leaders too frequently in scouting callings, and lack of volunteer involvement in the scouting program. (You don’t have to be “called” in order to serve in Scouting).

One key to my success in scouting in my LDS Troop was my Dad’s involvement in my activities. We never cut corners. I never got a break. I fulfilled every requirement, and took the leadership role in my advancement as well as my Eagle project.

As a Scoutmaster today, I see some LDS troops we interact with running sub-par programs. But that’s not the rule. I also have a high-bar for my scouts and their completion of their requirements.

I also contend that scouting is STILL a very vital part of the YM program. We as leaders need to raise the bar. We need to be better trained. We need more parental involvement. We need to provide a better program. We need to let the boys lead the troop, and their quorums.

It’s not the scouts fault that the program is failing them. But the program is still sound, and still very valuable.

If you (speaking generally) haven’t been to wood badge, been trained, and committed yourself to scouting. It’s easy to see how you’re disenchanted with it’s potential.

The comment about training was so true. Scouting programs will never deliver anything to Young Men if the adults ignore our Prophets and choose to do things their own way.

It is challenging to turn around a weak Scouting program and convince parents unfamiliar with the aims and values of Scouting that it is a worthy activity for Young Men.

If Mormon Scouts don’t experience fun and adventure in Scouting and have everything done for them by adults, they will, of course, hate the program.

Uninspired leaders can always make a bigger effort and find inspiration. Untrained leaders can choose to change their direction, humble themselves, and get trained, attend Roundtable, and network with Scout leaders who are succeeding. The results will be astounding, Young Men quorums will be tighter-knit, and the Young Men who complete their requirements for Eagle Scout will be far better prepared for the tremendous challenges that lie ahead.

Bottom line… Even knot tying, fire building, and other basic skills will help if the boys are recognized appropriately and they later find self-actualization as they teach and serve younger Scouts who need to pass-off requirements for their First Class rank. My sons who earned their Eagle can still start a fire and are responsible adults — that is enough proof for me that our Prophets are inspired men who are supportive of Aaronic Priesthood Scouting.

A quote:

The associations that advisers are able to establish with young men “are far more important than the content and implementation of the current young men’s programs,” the report noted.

Just to be clear, this quote is from the Ensign article, which is itself quoting from two original reports, which I think are not themselves published.

And one more quote from the article:

Some factors have little effect on whether a young man marries in the temple or goes on a mission: the distance he lives away from the meetinghouse, the number of young people in his school who are LDS, whether his parents were converts, his father’s occupation, or whether his mother is employed. Characteristics of the ward’s activity program—whether the ward sponsors athletic teams and events, schedules “special” activities for youth, or implements Scout programs—while contributing to the general spirit of the ward, seem to have little effect in and of themselves.

I have been Scoutmaster in two separate Troops/Councils (in separate states). While I think the arguements posted here are accurate at first glance, I think something is being missed. While tying knots, and learning “survival” skills (in preparation to be an Army “Ranger), is not terribly germane to today’s life for most, I believe the skills have a relevance, if approached in the right manner.

My focus is generally not on advancement—that takes care of itself (or not, depending on how the Scout does or does not take personal initiative in that regard). I focus on leadership, teamwork, self-discipline, brotherhood, and citizenship/service. An insightful adult can (with some effort, learning, and practice), tie even the most “useless” Scouting requirements (whether they are knots, knives, or how to build a fire with wet wood using only a shoelace and pencil…into 1) a meaningful/memorable experience for the Scout, and 2) a potential life lesson which can be applied not to the “survival” skill’s utility, but to the overall intangible goals of Scouting—character, leadership, citizenship. A Troop that focuses on being an Eagle mill will lose focus, and likely fail. Keep in mind also that the Scouting program does NOT replace the Priesthood quorum, but only acts as the activity arm!

One of the most resourceful guys I know was an Eagle Scout (he’s never been lds). Not only can he build things and start fires, he can sew curtains and cooks a kickass marina sauce. He’s also gay. He credits the scouts for his introduction to cooking and sewing. lol I find this humorous given their policies. Maybe someone should start a more accepting group that includes stuff like a Project Runway badge.

Also for what it is worth many of the aspects of scouting teaches the boys how to do things at home. Cleanliness, cooking, and we have a talk each camp out on how to treat girls.

The Church’s version of Scouting is checklist/leader driven/worthless only if the leaders choose to make it so. I have youth in the ward who are blazing through the requirements, and youth who haven’t made Second Class in 4 years. We’ve chosen to make the young men EARN anything they get in Scouting. I earned my Eagle the hard way — no breaks, no gimmes, no shortcuts, and I expect the same of our young men. If it’s just bestowed, nothing is learned and there’s no value. That means that less than half our young men make it to Life, but those who make Life or Eagle actually earn it.

We also have non-members from community troops conduct Eagle boards of review, so we’re sure that there’s no favoritism in the boards.

I fully agree that the Church abuses Scouting rather than using it. I’ve preached that so loud and long that people visibly cringe if I come to a Relationships meeting in our council. However, I’ve also seen young men turn into leaders, rise past problems in thir homes, and turn their lives around as they work through Scouting. We could surely do better, but our council hasn’t given up on getting LDS leaders properly trained, and we’re seeing more wards and stakes running Scouting like it should be run as time goes on.

If you want Scouting to be effective, run it as the BSA trains you to run it. We follow the program as the BSA outlines, though we do progress young men from Boys Scouts in the Deacons to Varsity in the Teachers to Venturing in the Teachers/Priests (we dual register in the team and crew to open up more possibilities). If you have leaders who aren’t doing the job, release them and find better personnel. If you find leaders who love it and do well, leave them alone for 5-10 years before even thinking about putting them in another call. Accept volunteers if they wish to participate. The Scouting guidebook allows for use of member and non-member volunteers in Church Scouting. We have non-member parents who are assistant scoutmasters in our troop, and they do a great job. I volunteer while serving in the bishopric, and a member of the stake presidency volunteered in the troop even after his official release when he was called into the stake presidency.

Scouting is neither dated nor irrelevant. The Church may abuse the program where leadership doesn’t learn to do it correctly, but local leaders ultimately influence how the program is implemented. Train them properly, and teach them to love the boys and the program. You’ll see success if you do.

Scouting worked for me as a kid because I had an amazing scoutmaster, who loved us like sons, sometimes was tough on us, and let us experience adventure. I disliked all the advancement, which was heavily pushed among all ward leadership, even though I (read: my parents) earned Eagle. I just love those memories of summer nights where he told us about his adventures in ‘Nam, and all the cool stuff we did. My dad was also positively and frequently involved in it all–which unfortunately also included pushing on me all the stuff that I realy didn’t like doing, too. Still, it was a mostly positive experience.

Scouts just doesn’t often work that way anymore. My son still participates with an LDS troop, here and there, but I’m more enthused about our Christian church’s youth program. It’s fun; let’s kids be kids; intentionally makes worship both upbeat and meaningful; is co-ed; sermons and Bible study are life skills oriented; has regular service opportunities in the community and, during the summer, elsewhere in the US or the world (for kids 15+). As others in the thread have mentioned, the LDS Scouting program can work to really change hearts and raise good young men in spite of many parts of the program. It’s rare, though, you get those kind of leaders, that kind of program. The status quo is usually a program largely disconnected to providing real world benefits (including real word spiritual benefit). At worst it is just rag-tag basketball. One of several motivating factors for us changing faith traditions is that we wanted a family church experience that seemed more practically focused (and more meaningful, uplifting and enjoyable) that had more intentional programs –including for us parents– for reaching goals more like what Stephen Marsh outlines at the beginning of this thread.

I hope this just doesn’t come off as critical. i just wanted to share our experience that we have found this kind of youth opportunity for our son outside of LDS Scouting, and to give a big kudos to what Marsh is advocating for LDS Young Men.

YAJ #29, that you are able to maintain shadow leadership with 12- and 13- year olds is a testament to your character. I am striving for what you describe. More power to you.

In non-LDS troops, boys choose to stop participating all the time. Very few (I suppose I should find real numbers) stick around to become SPL and lead the younger scouts. In LDS troops, they become teachers / Varsity scouts and drop a lot of the trappings of scouting, but we try to keep them engaged in one way or another.

My experience has been all over the map also. All I can say is that Scouting is a good experience for MOST boys when the adults buy into the program AND the boys are allowed to do what they are supposed to do. Plan and carry out the program. In our troop, basically the SM and his assistant provide transportation. That’s it. The Scouts plan their patrol meetings, their outings, their curriculum (if you want to call it that). If a boy forgets his sleeping bag, the boys solve the problem. If he forgets a frying pan, the boys solve the problem. Sometimes they come to the adults for help, but they have to ask for it. If a new scout asks the SM or another adult a question, he’s referred to the patrol leader, and then the SPL. Of course, it doesn’t always work that smoothly, but by and large it does.

My big beef, is of course, that it pretty much goes out the window when they hit Varsity Scouts. I’ve seen it happen with all four of my boys. Rather than change Scouts, let’s change the Church! At least make Varsity Scouts the leadership cadre and let ‘em put to good use the experience they gained.

Knots and stuff: It’s not only about knots, it’s about confidence and problem solving ability. Believe me, the look on a kid’s face the first time he ties a woggle (modified Turk’s Head) is something to behold. When they figure out how to make a monkey bridge and use it, when they are faced with an unexpected obstacle on a hike or campout and overcome it. I really think most of our problems could be solved it adults would practice shadow leadership, not just preach it.

One of my most cherished memories in Scouting (or in my life, for that matter) occured late one evening on an isolated part of the North Rim of the Grand Canyon. That night I watched my son, newly installed as SPL, make a late night check of each group of boys. There was one young man, new to the troop, who had no friends in the group, and who had set up his sleeping bag in an area apart from any of the others. Later I saw Matt, my son, drag his stuff away from his particular bunch of frieds and set up by the loner. I asked Matt the next morning why he had done that. “He had no one, dad.”
Well, to shorten this up, the “loner” turned out to be an asset to the troop, and made friends with about everyone. He never made Eagle, or even Life, for that matter, but he leaves in a couple of months for his mission. Was it that one moment on a camping trip? Probably not. But a young man, doing his duty, without prompting, affected another life for good, when just as easily it could’ve went the other way.

And I’ve seen kids that hated camping got thru scouts and still hate it. One size does not fit all. But that can apply to any program or calling in the church. Sometimes in our zeal for the greater good we neglect the “lost sheep”. The boy who doesn’t quite fit in or has other interests. And that’s a whole other post.

Well, this has gone on long enough. In case you’re still wondering, yes, I support Scouting (as it should be, not as it often is). If you take it away, what do you do to replace it? I think it would have to be replaced, not just dropped, or video games and pizza will replace it!

Kumbaya,

John

Well said Stephen, and that really is the problem with scouting in the church. I agree with Peter Brown that the BSA program has much to offer many boys, the problem is that the church has taken the BSA program and castrated it.

Our stake wanted its scout leaders to be trained. So I spent one complete Saturday at the church while local council leaders presented the real BSA program. The stake was expecting this training to jump start our enthusiasm for our callings, ironically for me it did just the opposite. In that training I saw what Boy Scouts aspires to be and how the structural changes we have made to scouting in the church have destroyed that vision.

The BSA model is based on developing leadership in boys through the patrol method. Older scouts, meaning 16, 17 year old teenagers, lead the patrols. They are the voice of experience in the troop. They are elected by their peers. The LDS model is based on the Deacons quorum. There are no older, experienced scouts in most LDS troops. Scouting is purely an activity for 12 and 13 year olds. The Sr. Patrol leader is by definition the Deacon’s quorum president. How much more leadership and experience does a 13 year old boy have than a 12 year old? How much does a 12 year old look up to that 13 year old? How many patrols can a single ward sustain? In the case of my own ward the answer is one. How can you teach leadership through patrols when the numbers and the seniority aren’t there by definition?

The BSA model teaches troops to dream big and then plan and set goals to reach those dreams. One leader from a non LDS troop who attended the training mentioned that a few years ago his troop decided they wanted to meet Scouts from somewhere else in the world. They raised money and attended a scout camp in Switzerland. That kind of activity is impossible in an LDS troop. We cannot raise money outside of strict guidelines established by the church. We cannont go on super activities anymore. In my stake we have been told that one week of summer camp each year is our one long term overnight experience, and we cannot even go to a new and different camp, we have to stay within the state. All of these restrictions put an end to the dream big vision of the BSA training.

The trainer emphasized that rank advancement is just one method of accomplishing the aims of scouting, “It’s not a patch collecting society”. But because of the structural limitations of LDS scouting we really are a patch collecting society. Rank advancement has become the mark of success in LDS scouting, in a large part because we are denied so many other avenues available to non LDS troops.

A real BSA troop functions as an independent non profit organization staffed by willing and dedicated volunteers. An LDS scout troop for the most part functions as a classroom activity on Tuesday night.

I’ve had some training as an adult, and enjoyed it.

I’m not arguing against what Scouting can be, I’m talking (sadly) about what it is. I do think that if we had more wilderness things would be a lot different. Rough campsites and wilderness camping, swimming in lakes and hiking through the snow really can’t be beat.

get outdoors once a month, do service at least once a month, haggle with each other over little things (like who will bring the bacon on the campout), hurt each other’s feelings and get over it, and on and on — if scouting delivered that more often than not, I think it would be grand.

We need a program that delivers time and attention, while letting the kids practice leading each other and engagement rather than checklisting.

My biggest problem with scouting is that it is a Church-sanctioned and even -demanded commercial endeavor. My second biggest problem is that it obviously does not teach similar family-oriented skills as the Young Women’s program. It may teach a man to be a better part of the community (one of the most oft-quoted reasons stated for the Church to stick with Scouting), but it does not teach them to be good husbands and fathers the way YW emphasizes being a good wife and mother. That reason is followed closely by the attitude difference between the boys’ and girls’ programs. “Scouting is a great program in addition to YM that helps our boys become better men, but YW is enough for the girls.” Bah! I think few men really know what it feels like to walk down the hall to the room where you’ll make “scripture chase cookies” or learn to sew handkerchiefs for your hope chest, and pass by the cultural hall where the boys are learning to build fires and tie knots or are playing basketball for their “YM activity” and are just having a grand, fun time. It certainly gives a sense of relative value which is hard to overcome, even when you want to and are working hard at it.

It’s not so much that Scouting is evil as that the way it is implemented teaches boys that they don’t really have to work to be “successful” and as long as they seem to do great things for the community, they will look good. It also teaches that having fun is the most important reason to do something. If there truly is spirituality and depth of character taught by the Scouting program, where is it in our so-called Eagle Scouts? Those few Eagle Scouts I’ve seen with those qualities have it as part of their personality or were convinced into it by their families. It’s like being a returned missionary. It means nothing if the mission meant nothing to the missionary. Those who testify to the importance of scouting usually do so in terms of “it was fun” or “it was not fun” not “it taught me a deeper relationship with my Savior” or “I’m a better husband and father now.” To me, that’s telling evidence. I’d like to see the arguments in defense of scouting (such as in #15 above) applied to the girls and what they’d like to do and would find fun. “Doesn’t shopping teach patience and endurance and how to manage money?” “Wouldn’t learning electrical skills teach the girls what they need to know in life?” Funny how it just doesn’t seem to matter for the women.

Those who know me and know my commenting style know I don’t usually take the feminist, controversial or complaining bent, but this subject has elicited a little outrage from me. Sorry about that.

Do a good turn daily.

That said, I will say that not all LDS Scouting programs are as lame as you describe. In both my previous ward (DC Branch/Chevy Chase Ward) and my current one (Parker Ward, Colorado), there is a heavy emphasis on camping, including winter camping. The Eagle projects I’ve observed appear to be significant service projects driven by the Scout in question, not the Scout’s mother (though it’s hard to tell for sure). And there seems to be a fundamental focus on skills; for example, in our current ward, I know that the Scouts have (among other things) been taught how to build bows and arrows from scratch using native materials. My own (Explorer) Scouting experience as a teenager included multiple camping trips to the San Jacinto Mountains and a wonderful week-long hike through the Sierras from Yosemite Valley to Reds Meadows.

But I suspect that the Scouting problems described in the comments above likely stem from the fact that LDS involvement in Scouting is, in effect, mandatory, whereas non-LDS Scout troops (both the boys and the leaders) are by and large self-selected for interest. In other words, the leaders and boys in a non-LDS Scout troop are there because they really want to be (and those that don’t want to be, leave). In the Church, by contrast, the Scout leaders are called to those positions, while the boys find themselves in Scouting by simple virtue of their age, not their choice. Under those conditions, it seem a natural result that most LDS Scout troops as a rule would be far less, well, Scout-y than non-LDS Scout troops. Here and there in the Church, you get great Scout leaders who run great troops and get the boys really fired up, but those are likely to be the exception, not the rule.

In short, the only way that LDS Scout troops will ever be as effective as non-LDS Scout troops would be if they were completely voluntary for both the leaders and the boys themselves. Under such circumstances, I suspect that a large majority of LDS Scout troops would disappear or consolidate with other troops. ..bruce..