Comments on: The Unfinished Restoration: A Global Vision http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/05/the-unfinished-restoration-a-global-vision/ A weekly podcast exploring Mormon culture and current events. Fri, 10 Feb 2012 04:06:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Kevin http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/05/the-unfinished-restoration-a-global-vision/#comment-7751 Kevin Sat, 15 Mar 2008 21:37:53 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/05/the-unfinished-restoration-a-global-vision/#comment-7751 Andrew, I sense of thawing of thought and an expansion of vision here. Thank you. You'd never have gotten this enthusiastic hearing back in the days of President Benson. When I was a missionary in Thailand our introductions were often greeted cheerfully with a phrase that I have come to value more and more over the years, "Each and every religion teaches men to be good." At the time it felt like an pat answer that drove us crazy but now it shines for me like a bit of gold in a stream bed. I have to chuckle at my repeating the official line when I was a missionary that reincarnation is incorrect. I've long since come to believe—in part through the writings of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young—that reincarnation is one of the facts of life just over the horizon of mortality. Andrew,

I sense of thawing of thought and an expansion of vision here. Thank you. You’d never have gotten this enthusiastic hearing back in the days of President Benson.

When I was a missionary in Thailand our introductions were often greeted cheerfully with a phrase that I have come to value more and more over the years, “Each and every religion teaches men to be good.” At the time it felt like an pat answer that drove us crazy but now it shines for me like a bit of gold in a stream bed.

I have to chuckle at my repeating the official line when I was a missionary that reincarnation is incorrect. I’ve long since come to believe—in part through the writings of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young—that reincarnation is one of the facts of life just over the horizon of mortality.

]]> By: How Mormons Are Buddhists & Vice Versa at Mormon Matters http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/05/the-unfinished-restoration-a-global-vision/#comment-7487 How Mormons Are Buddhists & Vice Versa at Mormon Matters Wed, 12 Mar 2008 19:00:34 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/05/the-unfinished-restoration-a-global-vision/#comment-7487 [...] I’ve discussed in a previous post, the Book of Mormon declares that God speaks the “same words” to “all nations,” and that [...] [...] I’ve discussed in a previous post, the Book of Mormon declares that God speaks the “same words” to “all nations,” and that [...]

]]> By: Gathering God’s Words to “All Nations”: When, Where, How, and Who Cares? at Mormon Matters http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/05/the-unfinished-restoration-a-global-vision/#comment-7215 Gathering God’s Words to “All Nations”: When, Where, How, and Who Cares? at Mormon Matters Sun, 09 Mar 2008 19:00:55 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/05/the-unfinished-restoration-a-global-vision/#comment-7215 [...] that’s not true at all. But I do have a few ideas, and I’d love to hear yours. In my previous post on this topic, I discussed the Book of Mormon’s description of a world full of [...] [...] that’s not true at all. But I do have a few ideas, and I’d love to hear yours. In my previous post on this topic, I discussed the Book of Mormon’s description of a world full of [...]

]]> By: Andrew Ainsworth http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/05/the-unfinished-restoration-a-global-vision/#comment-7173 Andrew Ainsworth Sun, 09 Mar 2008 04:53:40 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/05/the-unfinished-restoration-a-global-vision/#comment-7173 "So when in my studies of science or cultures or whatever I find something that rings true in my mind and heart, I don’t have to view it as a potential competitor with the Gospel, it is actually part of the Gospel itself." Jamal, I think that says it perfectly. Thanks! “So when in my studies of science or cultures or whatever I find something that rings true in my mind and heart, I don’t have to view it as a potential competitor with the Gospel, it is actually part of the Gospel itself.”

Jamal, I think that says it perfectly. Thanks!

]]> By: Jamal http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/05/the-unfinished-restoration-a-global-vision/#comment-7157 Jamal Sun, 09 Mar 2008 01:17:00 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/05/the-unfinished-restoration-a-global-vision/#comment-7157 Add my name to the list of those who appreciate this perspective. In particular I like how you try to bring balance to it. Some see a vision of this and quickly lean towards thinking that means everything is the same and suddenly the restored Gospel is nothing special other than yet another nice path like all the others. Other folks reject this view out of hand and stay narrowly confined. As you rightly point out, Joseph and Brigham and modern Apostles and Prophets have this amazingly open, expansive, and yet properly defined vision of truth. We have a core of canon we can and should rely upon, and yet that very canon and the Prophets teach us to be open to and looking for truth everywhere and seeking to incorporate it into what we know. So when in my studies of science or cultures or whatever I find something that rings true in my mind and heart, I don't have to view it as a potential competitor with the Gospel, it is actually part of the Gospel itself. I think I've always lived on this basis, but thank you for articulating it well. Add my name to the list of those who appreciate this perspective. In particular I like how you try to bring balance to it. Some see a vision of this and quickly lean towards thinking that means everything is the same and suddenly the restored Gospel is nothing special other than yet another nice path like all the others. Other folks reject this view out of hand and stay narrowly confined. As you rightly point out, Joseph and Brigham and modern Apostles and Prophets have this amazingly open, expansive, and yet properly defined vision of truth. We have a core of canon we can and should rely upon, and yet that very canon and the Prophets teach us to be open to and looking for truth everywhere and seeking to incorporate it into what we know. So when in my studies of science or cultures or whatever I find something that rings true in my mind and heart, I don’t have to view it as a potential competitor with the Gospel, it is actually part of the Gospel itself. I think I’ve always lived on this basis, but thank you for articulating it well.

]]> By: Andrew Ainsworth http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/05/the-unfinished-restoration-a-global-vision/#comment-6955 Andrew Ainsworth Thu, 06 Mar 2008 07:50:44 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/05/the-unfinished-restoration-a-global-vision/#comment-6955 John D. (#15) Your comment is way too kind. And to be clear, it was Joseph and Brigham's vision, not mine, and it has been reiterated by Elders Hunter, Faust, Oaks, and many others. And I too hope we can discover a way to bring that global vision to pass. John D. (#15) Your comment is way too kind. And to be clear, it was Joseph and Brigham’s vision, not mine, and it has been reiterated by Elders Hunter, Faust, Oaks, and many others. And I too hope we can discover a way to bring that global vision to pass.

]]> By: John Dehlin http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/05/the-unfinished-restoration-a-global-vision/#comment-6939 John Dehlin Thu, 06 Mar 2008 02:53:02 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/05/the-unfinished-restoration-a-global-vision/#comment-6939 Andrew, I truly love this perspective. It would bring me great joy to learn that general membership and leadership grew to see things as expansively and as inclusively as you do. I believe that we are slowly moving towards your vision -- but I see you as visionary...and I see the rest of us working towards this goal. Thanks for sharing such wonderful thoughts! May we all pay attention!!! Andrew,

I truly love this perspective. It would bring me great joy to learn that general membership and leadership grew to see things as expansively and as inclusively as you do.

I believe that we are slowly moving towards your vision — but I see you as visionary…and I see the rest of us working towards this goal.

Thanks for sharing such wonderful thoughts! May we all pay attention!!!

]]> By: Andrew Ainsworth http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/05/the-unfinished-restoration-a-global-vision/#comment-6901 Andrew Ainsworth Wed, 05 Mar 2008 21:16:59 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/05/the-unfinished-restoration-a-global-vision/#comment-6901 dpc, great points. As Mark Twain said: Travel cures prejudice. We think we know it all until we realize how much everyone else knows already, and then realize what they know that we haven't fully realized yet. dpc, great points. As Mark Twain said: Travel cures prejudice. We think we know it all until we realize how much everyone else knows already, and then realize what they know that we haven’t fully realized yet.

]]> By: dpc http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/05/the-unfinished-restoration-a-global-vision/#comment-6900 dpc Wed, 05 Mar 2008 21:09:48 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/05/the-unfinished-restoration-a-global-vision/#comment-6900 I also think that the missionary program of the church may play a role in finding truth. I think a lot of missionaries go out thinking, "I've got something to tell the world!", but come back thinking "Wow, the world had a lot to teach me!" There are a lot of things that I learned from Japanese culture that would be great if they implemented here. (On the other hand, there are a lot things that are not positive). Missionary experiences may also become scripture. They may not be strictly doctrinal, but I'm sure a that a lot of missionary experiences become parts of lessons and talks for years afterwards. I also think that the missionary program of the church may play a role in finding truth. I think a lot of missionaries go out thinking, “I’ve got something to tell the world!”, but come back thinking “Wow, the world had a lot to teach me!” There are a lot of things that I learned from Japanese culture that would be great if they implemented here. (On the other hand, there are a lot things that are not positive). Missionary experiences may also become scripture. They may not be strictly doctrinal, but I’m sure a that a lot of missionary experiences become parts of lessons and talks for years afterwards.

]]> By: Andrew Ainsworth http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/05/the-unfinished-restoration-a-global-vision/#comment-6895 Andrew Ainsworth Wed, 05 Mar 2008 20:56:47 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/05/the-unfinished-restoration-a-global-vision/#comment-6895 dpc, great question. When I was on my mission, a sister showed me an old Relief Society manual that contained works of literature as the curriculum. She said they used to study literary works known for containing spiritual truth. It's all part of the searching out the best books that we're admonished to do in D&C. Scripture can be narrowly defined as that which has been officially "canonized," e.g., the "standard works," or can be defined broadly as anything spoken under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit which has been written down. So whether or not studying the Bhagavad Gita equates to "scripture study" would depend on your definition of "scripture." In my follow-up post, I'll be addressing these definitions of scripture, canonization, etc. So you're going exactly where I am with this. dpc, great question. When I was on my mission, a sister showed me an old Relief Society manual that contained works of literature as the curriculum. She said they used to study literary works known for containing spiritual truth. It’s all part of the searching out the best books that we’re admonished to do in D&C. Scripture can be narrowly defined as that which has been officially “canonized,” e.g., the “standard works,” or can be defined broadly as anything spoken under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit which has been written down. So whether or not studying the Bhagavad Gita equates to “scripture study” would depend on your definition of “scripture.” In my follow-up post, I’ll be addressing these definitions of scripture, canonization, etc. So you’re going exactly where I am with this.

]]> By: Andrew Ainsworth http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/05/the-unfinished-restoration-a-global-vision/#comment-6893 Andrew Ainsworth Wed, 05 Mar 2008 20:47:11 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/05/the-unfinished-restoration-a-global-vision/#comment-6893 John N. (#6) you smart aleck. I love it. I'm going to delete your comment. Okay maybe not. It's too funny. But thank you for indulging me on a topic that is near and dear to my heart and that I'm passionate about. Your comment in #8 above is exactly what I'm getting at. If we quote Les Misrables to the extent it is in harmony with well-known gospel principles, then why not also quote the Bhagavad Gita, the Upanishads, the Tao Te Ching, the Dhammapada, etc. to the extent they likewise harmonize with the Gospel? It seems there is an ocean of spirituality and truth that we're not fully tapping into yet because of that magical, powerful word: Tradition. John N. (#6) you smart aleck. I love it. I’m going to delete your comment. Okay maybe not. It’s too funny. But thank you for indulging me on a topic that is near and dear to my heart and that I’m passionate about.

Your comment in #8 above is exactly what I’m getting at. If we quote Les Misrables to the extent it is in harmony with well-known gospel principles, then why not also quote the Bhagavad Gita, the Upanishads, the Tao Te Ching, the Dhammapada, etc. to the extent they likewise harmonize with the Gospel? It seems there is an ocean of spirituality and truth that we’re not fully tapping into yet because of that magical, powerful word: Tradition.

]]> By: jayspec http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/05/the-unfinished-restoration-a-global-vision/#comment-6892 jayspec Wed, 05 Mar 2008 20:34:40 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/05/the-unfinished-restoration-a-global-vision/#comment-6892 "Do these musicals have more to say to us than the founding texts of world religions?' Same message, less controversy! “Do these musicals have more to say to us than the founding texts of world religions?’

Same message, less controversy!

]]> By: dpc http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/05/the-unfinished-restoration-a-global-vision/#comment-6891 dpc Wed, 05 Mar 2008 20:29:45 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/05/the-unfinished-restoration-a-global-vision/#comment-6891 Would this interpretation change what we regard as 'scripture reading'? If something is part of the official canon, then I guess we know it is from God. Should our families be actively searching for truth in books other than the standard works? Maybe scripture studying time could be devoted to reading the classics of literature, philosophy, history and relating them to gospel principles. Would this interpretation change what we regard as ‘scripture reading’? If something is part of the official canon, then I guess we know it is from God. Should our families be actively searching for truth in books other than the standard works? Maybe scripture studying time could be devoted to reading the classics of literature, philosophy, history and relating them to gospel principles.

]]> By: John Nilsson http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/05/the-unfinished-restoration-a-global-vision/#comment-6886 John Nilsson Wed, 05 Mar 2008 19:52:08 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/05/the-unfinished-restoration-a-global-vision/#comment-6886 Jeff, Good point. But there are quotes in General Conference from Les Miserables and the Music Man. Do these musicals have more to say to us than the founding texts of world religions? Andrew, I guess I was thinking of how we approach the products of revelation in the Church. If the concept of the Restoration can include truths revealed to Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, and Sikhs, we are obviously committed to a filtering or sifting process to determine what is in harmony with the gospel of Jesus Christ. Ergo, if we are engaged in a sifting process, say we as LDS accept a principle in the Quran which enjoins us to give alms to the needy at a certain percentage in a certain spirit but reject the description of heaven as a male-centered paradise with fruits, cooling fans, and beautiful virgins attending to our every need, why stop with the Quran? Why not apply the same selective approach to the LDS canon? The Song of Solomon is in the canon, right? I mean, it's very presence in the LDS version of the Bible has added to that crink in my neck I get from carrying the scriptures around... Jeff,

Good point. But there are quotes in General Conference from Les Miserables and the Music Man. Do these musicals have more to say to us than the founding texts of world religions?

Andrew,

I guess I was thinking of how we approach the products of revelation in the Church. If the concept of the Restoration can include truths revealed to Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, and Sikhs, we are obviously committed to a filtering or sifting process to determine what is in harmony with the gospel of Jesus Christ. Ergo, if we are engaged in a sifting process, say we as LDS accept a principle in the Quran which enjoins us to give alms to the needy at a certain percentage in a certain spirit but reject the description of heaven as a male-centered paradise with fruits, cooling fans, and beautiful virgins attending to our every need, why stop with the Quran? Why not apply the same selective approach to the LDS canon?

The Song of Solomon is in the canon, right? I mean, it’s very presence in the LDS version of the Bible has added to that crink in my neck I get from carrying the scriptures around…

]]> By: Jeff Spector http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/05/the-unfinished-restoration-a-global-vision/#comment-6885 Jeff Spector Wed, 05 Mar 2008 19:36:28 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/05/the-unfinished-restoration-a-global-vision/#comment-6885 I am not sure when we say we gather in all truth, that is applies to looking under every rock to find it. I think the truth must be associated with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The way that is revealed is through scripture, both currently in our possession and yet to be discovered and that which is revealed by Prophets through revelation. Otherwise, I think we would have already incorporated the "truth" from other religions and their texts, most of which have long existed before the church. There is no movement in that direction that I am aware of. No quotes in GC from the Talmud or Koran, for example. And, I don't think I can carry all those to church in my little scripture bag. I am not sure when we say we gather in all truth, that is applies to looking under every rock to find it. I think the truth must be associated with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The way that is revealed is through scripture, both currently in our possession and yet to be discovered and that which is revealed by Prophets through revelation. Otherwise, I think we would have already incorporated the “truth” from other religions and their texts, most of which have long existed before the church. There is no movement in that direction that I am aware of. No quotes in GC from the Talmud or Koran, for example.

And, I don’t think I can carry all those to church in my little scripture bag.

]]> By: John Nilsson http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/05/the-unfinished-restoration-a-global-vision/#comment-6884 John Nilsson Wed, 05 Mar 2008 19:34:15 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/05/the-unfinished-restoration-a-global-vision/#comment-6884 Andrew, You're just so far above us! Three names come to mind, Mother Theresa of Calcutta, Dr. Albert Schweitzer, and Andrew Ainsworth! Andrew,

You’re just so far above us! Three names come to mind, Mother Theresa of Calcutta, Dr. Albert Schweitzer, and Andrew Ainsworth!

]]> By: Andrew Ainsworth http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/05/the-unfinished-restoration-a-global-vision/#comment-6882 Andrew Ainsworth Wed, 05 Mar 2008 19:04:41 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/05/the-unfinished-restoration-a-global-vision/#comment-6882 P.S., due to the lack of comments on this post thus far, I am beginning to see that not only are these principles often overlooked, but nobody is even interested in talking about them! :) I hereby call you all to repentance! Repent! Repent! Your slings and arrows cannot touch me! :) P.S., due to the lack of comments on this post thus far, I am beginning to see that not only are these principles often overlooked, but nobody is even interested in talking about them! :)

I hereby call you all to repentance! Repent! Repent! Your slings and arrows cannot touch me! :)

]]> By: Andrew Ainsworth http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/05/the-unfinished-restoration-a-global-vision/#comment-6879 Andrew Ainsworth Wed, 05 Mar 2008 18:39:05 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/05/the-unfinished-restoration-a-global-vision/#comment-6879 John, great question, and you're getting ahead to part 2! I agree that seems to be the typical view (to the extent anyone even thinks about it) that the books will be gathered together when the lost 10 tribes come down from the north and the city of Enoch comes down from heaven. I'm just not sure it's supposed to work that way. I'm interested in hearing more about why you believe "this opens up radical departures for the interpretation of the LDS canon." I guess what I mean is, I'm not sure why a greater recognition and application of these principles would require us to tinker with the LDS canon at all. My understanding is that the "canon" is very narrow (i.e., the "standard works), and doesn't officially include many sources of truth we nevertheless rely upon frequently, e.g., General Conference addresses, curriculum and lesson manuals, Ensign articles, C.S. Lewis quotes, etc. So if we can rely upon General Conference addresses and C.S. Lewis quotes notwithstanding the fact that they haven't been canonized yet, I'm not sure why we would need to tinker with the canon to likewise rely upon the Dhammapada or Qur'an, etc., to the extent they agree with the standard works. My purpose here in this first post is mainly to encourage us all to have a broad view and open mind about potential sources of spiritual truth around the world, and to demonstrate how that principle is either explicitly or implicitly contained in our scriptures and statements of church leaders, though perhaps not fully recognized and applied yet by the average Mormon our local wards and stakes. John, great question, and you’re getting ahead to part 2! I agree that seems to be the typical view (to the extent anyone even thinks about it) that the books will be gathered together when the lost 10 tribes come down from the north and the city of Enoch comes down from heaven. I’m just not sure it’s supposed to work that way.

I’m interested in hearing more about why you believe “this opens up radical departures for the interpretation of the LDS canon.” I guess what I mean is, I’m not sure why a greater recognition and application of these principles would require us to tinker with the LDS canon at all. My understanding is that the “canon” is very narrow (i.e., the “standard works), and doesn’t officially include many sources of truth we nevertheless rely upon frequently, e.g., General Conference addresses, curriculum and lesson manuals, Ensign articles, C.S. Lewis quotes, etc. So if we can rely upon General Conference addresses and C.S. Lewis quotes notwithstanding the fact that they haven’t been canonized yet, I’m not sure why we would need to tinker with the canon to likewise rely upon the Dhammapada or Qur’an, etc., to the extent they agree with the standard works.

My purpose here in this first post is mainly to encourage us all to have a broad view and open mind about potential sources of spiritual truth around the world, and to demonstrate how that principle is either explicitly or implicitly contained in our scriptures and statements of church leaders, though perhaps not fully recognized and applied yet by the average Mormon our local wards and stakes.

]]> By: John Nilsson http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/05/the-unfinished-restoration-a-global-vision/#comment-6875 John Nilsson Wed, 05 Mar 2008 18:03:57 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/05/the-unfinished-restoration-a-global-vision/#comment-6875 Andrew, What is your opinion of what it means to "gather in"? When I heard this as a kid, I always assumed the lost ten tribes would come out from behind a glacier and hand a moldy manuscript over to the President of the Church. Does "gathering in" mean, as you seem to imply, the selective individual appropriation of the world's religious texts? So I can select which of the suras come from God, which from man, and which from the devil, to paraphrase Joseph Smith? If so, this opens up radical departures for the interpretation of the LDS canon... Andrew,

What is your opinion of what it means to “gather in”? When I heard this as a kid, I always assumed the lost ten tribes would come out from behind a glacier and hand a moldy manuscript over to the President of the Church.

Does “gathering in” mean, as you seem to imply, the selective individual appropriation of the world’s religious texts? So I can select which of the suras come from God, which from man, and which from the devil, to paraphrase Joseph Smith? If so, this opens up radical departures for the interpretation of the LDS canon…

]]> By: Stephen M (Ethesis) http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/05/the-unfinished-restoration-a-global-vision/#comment-6847 Stephen M (Ethesis) Wed, 05 Mar 2008 13:05:45 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/05/the-unfinished-restoration-a-global-vision/#comment-6847 Fits exactly with what Paul wrote in Hebrews (his only classic midrash) when he writes of God speaking to all nations and peoples ... Thanks for the reminder. Fits exactly with what Paul wrote in Hebrews (his only classic midrash) when he writes of God speaking to all nations and peoples …

Thanks for the reminder.

]]> By: Benjamin O http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/05/the-unfinished-restoration-a-global-vision/#comment-6846 Benjamin O Wed, 05 Mar 2008 13:04:52 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/2008/03/05/the-unfinished-restoration-a-global-vision/#comment-6846 Curses. I guess I need to go out and purchase and English-Arabic copy of the Quran. I've been meaning to do this, but now I really need to do this. Great, what will my wife think? Curses. I guess I need to go out and purchase and English-Arabic copy of the Quran. I’ve been meaning to do this, but now I really need to do this. Great, what will my wife think?

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