What was this quoted from? Was it a recent activity? I am trying to find Persian LDS members throughout the world. If Andrew or others are familiar with some LDS Mormons, could you please contact me?

Thank you.

Your post makes me think of a small, yet profound, little book I picked up reading last night: How Good is Good Enough?. The author, spends the first half of the book turning on its ear the Good People Go To Heaven paradigm, and its offshoots, that have infiltrated all religious organizations throughout history, including Christianity. I love his skeptical, fresh, entertaining attitude he applies toward cultural rationalizations of blessedness from God like you mention in your example. Now I have to read the other half.

Not necessarily. I believe God has prompted me on numerous occasions without once interfering with or violating my agency. You say “meddling”; I say “prompting”. You might say “interfering”; I might say “inspiring possibilities”.

For example, I am convinced completely that God inspired me and my father-in-law separately and distinctly in ways that made it possible for me and my wife to meet in a very unusual way. I believe He got us together, but I don’t believe in any way, shape or form that He “made” us connect and eventually get married. My agency wasn’t violated one iota in that process, even though I recognize His hand in the process with absolute clarity.

My dad–who, unlike me, actually very much believes in God–related an interesting story; a friend was diagnosed with brain cancer. The ward fasted and prayed. The man went in for exploratory surgery and the cancer was gone! Miracle. My dad then shocked me to the core when he muttered that the man never had cancer to begin with. (His advise was essentially to keep your faith promoting stories to yourself.)

Last week, a lady got up and talked about the fact that she drove through an intersection and missed an accident by mere inches. She knew that the Lord had watched out for her and that her testimony was stronger now than it had been prior. She attributed it to the fact that she leads a good, clean life and is a member of the church. I leaned over to my wife and asked her if that meant for each other member of the congregation, who have had accidents, if that meant they were not good, dirty, non-members. I’ve caused a few accidents in my lifetime and I suppose that it means I’m just plain evil.

I guess I’m just bothered by how much people attribute to divine intervention. If I go around giving God credit for everything that goes good in my life, and then doing the opposite for the hard times, it negates the fact that me, and others have free agency. I think Heavenly Father will help put things into action, but how things play out, it largely to how we as free-wills interact with each other. I simply get tired of people just laying everything that happens in their live on some divine good/bad influence. The scriptures are full of bad things happening to good people and vice-versa.

I had another more personal experience where my wife’s early ultrasound showed a potential problem that could cause a number of birth defects, but none had occurred at the time. Study of the internet on the subject suggested that if no problems were noted, then there was a 70% chance that everything would be normal. The defects, even at a 30 percent chance, were difficult to face. We set out with prayers, a blessing, and names on temple roles, as there was not any medical treatment that could be performed.

We in fact had known a child born with the defects of this condition, and he was doing great, but needed some special surgeries and prosthetic limbs. I wondered if this was God’s way of preparing me for a child with special needs. During the blessing, the inspiration was to learn to trust God and accept his will and to make no promises.

At the follow-up ultrasound 12 weeks later, the evidence of the problem had disappeared
and everything looked fine. We were joyful and relieved. However, given the 70/30 odds, was it really a miracle or was it just favorable statistics? If I was to bear my testimony about our joy, would it be received in the same way by the audience as I received fellow with the bleeding foot?

I think the miracle for us, however, was both the comfort we felt that we had family and temple patrons praying for us and the power of the priesthood with us. We had done what we could and from there placed our faith in God. As the days went by, the worries became less and less until it really wasn’t a surprise at the second ultrasound because it was like I already knew that everything would be alright, and even if it wasn’t we felt that God would help us through whatever outcome existed. It was both a miracle and favorable statistics to us, but the miracle occurred in a quiet subtle way that could easily be trumped up by cynics as hoopla.

Let me give one example of a loving Father in Heaven looking out for me. About eight weeks ago I broke both of my elbows in a pool accident. Could God have prevented the accident? Certainly, but He didn’t. However, my wife was standing right there when it happened, and she was supposed to be somewhere else. 99 out of 100 times she would’ve been somewhere else, but this time was different. Coincidence? Highly improbable.

A lady I home teach had been in the hospital for six months with pancreatitis. Ironically, she checked out the same day I checked in. Notwithstanding, that wasn’t the closest hospital to where I live, but having been a regular visitor I was very impressed with the staff and quality of care she received, and so I made sure we went to that hospital. Coincidence? Could be, but I’m gald I went to that hospital insteadof the one closest to me.

Orthopedists make their bread and butter on knees and hips. However, a few weeks before my injury, a brilliant/pioneer orthopedist that only specializes in elbows and shoulders transferred to this hospital. I could write his bio, but I’m just hoping that you’ll accept it’s very impressive. He’s also LDS, which doesn’t make him a better orthopedist necessarily, but it gave me great comfort. Is there a timing coincidence of when he moved or when my elbows were broke? Again, it is highly improbable that the timing should be so close.

Though I never hope to experience anything like that again, I can assure that even though Heavenly Father didn’t prevent it, He was aware that it was going to heppen and looked out for me. There have been tremendous blessings that have come into my life since then that are directly attributable to the accident.

I think it can be. I’ve always thought that this scripture suggested as much:

And this is not all—it has been made manifest unto me, for I have heard and seen; and it also has been made manifest unto me by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, I know if there should be no atonement made all mankind must be lost.

And it came to pass that he said unto me: Show me a sign by this power of the Holy Ghost, in the which ye know so much. (Jacob 7:12-13)

On one hand, the more we get in line with his will, the more he reveals himself to us, and the more willing/able he is to pour out blessings. IE, to receive blessings/miracles, we need to go stand under the blessing faucet. I’m not ruling out that sometimes we get blessings without asking, and sometimes we get blessings without doing anything, and the Lord causes his rain to fall on the wicked as well as the just.

On the other hand, the more we learn, the more we can think, reason and do for ourselves, without having to rely on divine involvement. IE, in an answer to prayer, the Lord may say: “You’ve already learned how to handle that yourself, now go and do.”

This work-and-obedience is sometimes seen as being in contrast to “relying on the Lord”, but I don’t believe asking for a blessing or asking for the Lord to do something, and then sitting back and doing nothing ourselves is the right way either. We can ask for those things that the Lord wants to give us, and do for us; which are the things we can’t do for ourselves. But then after the prayer, I think it behooves us to do what we can, what is in our power, to bring it about.

For example, as the joke goes, if you ask the Lord to let you win the lottery, you then have to go out and buy a ticket.

I’ve been on both sides of the scale, at times wondering why God seemed to have abandoned me, and at other times, seeing his hand in things all throughout a day.

Our relationship with our Heavenly Father seems to have much in commen as with our earthly fathers. They start out doing things for you, then doing things with you, then send you out to do them on your own.

Some feel God puts us on earth and let’s us do our thing. Those who hold this view will find confirming evidence for their position and can speak or write at length bringing compelling evidence and reason to support their position.

On the other extreme of the spectrum are those who hold that God is involved in the minor as well as the important aspects of their life, even on a daily basis. And they can see confirming evidence for their position and can speak or write at length bringing compelling evidence and reason to support their position.

The point is that both of these position are correct, as well as all positions or paradigms that exist along the spectrum.

My belief and experience is that God will respond to us based on our faith, our point of view, or paradigm.

The Lord gives us the scripture to help us see our possibilities, and when we’re able, he will give us the companionship of the Holy Ghost to lead us from where ever we’re at, to where ever we will let Him take us.

And of course we must allow for the fact that we are imperfect beings, no matter where we’re at on the spectrum–we make mistakes and misunderstand, that is a given.

I hope all of us, no matter where we’re at on the spectrum will take the Lord up on His offer to give us the gift of the Holy Ghost, and all that goes with it.

Section Five 1842-43, p.278

Wednesday, Feb. 8.–This morning I read German and visited with a brother and sister from Michigan, who thought that “a prophet is always a prophet;” but I told them that a prophet was a prophet only when he was acting as such.–DHC 5:265.

The Sign Seeker

Section Five 1842-43, p.278

When I was preaching in Philadelphia, a Quaker called out for a sign. I told him to be still. After the sermon, he again asked for a sign. I told the congregation the man was an adulterer; that a wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and that the Lord had said to me in a revelation, that any man who wanted a sign was an adulterous person. “It is true,” cried one, “for I caught him in the very act,” which the man afterwards confessed when he was baptized. (Feb. 9, 1843.) DHC 5:268.

Indeed. The problem is what we signed up for, and what we think we are doing now, are two different things.

When things go bad, I really dislike the “God has something else in mind for you” answer. Most of the time the things that happen in our lives have nothing to do with God. The search committee hires someone else. The hurricane misses the city, but the levees break anyway. A mother of three is cured of cancer. A mother of three dies of cancer.

When we are able to see meaning in the challenges we have in our lives, that’s a very, very good thing. That’s a sign that we’re learning and growing in acceptance; a very important skill. But it doesn’t follow that our challenges are deliberate obstacles placed for our development by God the Micro-Manager.

From the lower echelons it will appear rather arrogant. Explain to those in Myanmar how God blessed you with a good home and good schools for your children.

I agree with hawkgrrrl. We knew the game before coming here and we are pretty d__ lucky to be where we are at.

I agree with Nick on this, but like Andrew and Ray I can also see the the pattern of God’s influence looking back over time. Occasional miracles like the one Andrew mentioned also occur and don’t fail to amaze, but they are more infrequent.

The best (worst?) examples I have heard are summarized by the following two:

1) Deion Sanders celebrates and interception with the “Holy Ghost dance” - thanking God for helping him make the interception. HUH?! What if the quarterback and/or receiver and/or any other member of the opposing team was just as good a person and praying with just as much real intent as he? That is SUCH an arrogant assumption that it boggles my mind. Unfortunately, it’s not that much different than assuming God will help BYU win in sports - the Mormon Miracle Bowl against SMU notwithstanding.

2) A pregnant mother with 6 other kids gets killed by a drunk driver, and everyone says, “It must have been her time. It must be God’s will.” HUH?! God *wants* a widowed man and his 6 children to grow up without their wife and mother?!

Yes, I believe God helps arrange some things (and I would say I KNOW that for myself), but I also think he doesn’t have his hands in everything we do.

If our lives are truly eternal, I don’t see how/why God would intervene in our lives? After all, we learn something whether he intervenes or not. For example, when a life is saved (and we attribute it to God), we learn about faith, God’s mercy, etc. But if the life is not saved, we learn about death, we say “God’s ways are not our ways,” or we say “God need him/her on the other side,” etc. Either way, God is great.

It is interesting to see what kind of God the rest of the country believes in, whether an Authoritarian God, a Benevolent God, a Critical God, a Distant God, or No God. I once wrote about it here:

http://sunstoneblog.com/2006/09/25/dear-god-america-calling/

Nick - “every time something went well for him, he declared it was deity intervening in his life. Every time something went bad for him, he declared it was the devil trying to destroy him.” I have encountered this idea quite a bit with people in the church, and have to bite my tongue sometimes. While I certainly allow people to interpret their experiences for themselves, I think (as I said previously) that a lot more is left up to us than we realize. We humans do a lot of amazingly LAME things to mess up our lives (re: bad investments) without the interference of Screwtape.

Andrew - Paradox is one of the things I love about religion, especially Mormonism. How can it be reconciled (in your case)? Lately I have been taking a more Buddhist approach to these conundrums. When I am faced with paradox, or conflict, rather than trying to reconcile them, or do any apologetic mental gymnastics, I just sit with them, and let them be. If that makes sense.

I remain completely puzzled and perplexed about which one God is. Take two examples from just this last weekend for me:

1. On Friday I receive a phone call informing me that one of my friends that I lived with for a couple years at BYU was found at the bottom of his parents’ swimming pool. It is still a mystery how he died. He was a kind-hearted person and didn’t have a mean bone in his body. He left a wife and four children ages 6 and under behind. Needless to say, his friends and family are devastated. God could have intervened in numerous ways to stop this, but He didn’t. In this situation, I see God as a Libertarian God who takes a “hands off” approach.

2. On Sunday, we began a Farsi-speaking Gospel Principles class. One of our Persian students who has been attending our English as a Second Language classes then told us that several weeks ago, she was so depressed that she wanted to commit suicide. (She is the sole caretaker for her elderly parents and her deaf sister; her husband and daughter life 100 miles away.) The next day, the sister missionaries knocked on her door. She said she couldn’t understand what the sisters were saying, except that they looked like good people and that they were telling her about free English classes at our church building. She said ever since she’s been coming to the church building each week, she’s felt a “power” that she cannot explain. It’s a “power” that is comforting her and giving her strength and she’s still struggling but now has so much hope. She said she wanted to know what was this “power.” This is the type of story I read about in the Ensign magazine and usually write it off as being embellished or “glurge.” But I heard this with my own ears on Sunday. In this situation where a woman is pondering suicide one night and sister missionaries knock on her door the next day, God seems to be an Interventionist God who is aware of pending tragedies and intervenes to stop them.

How do I reconcile story #1 with story #2? I have no idea.

Personal revelation is just that….personal. It is difficult for others to understand something so subjective. HOWEVER…even though it is subjective it can have value in it.

For example…there are times in my life where I have felt the Spirit and it has caused me to visibly change my behaviour to be a better, nicer and more humble person. Does that mean the spiritual experience I had wasnt “true to me”?

However…I get fishy when people start receiving revelation for other people on a conditional basis.

In my view, God respects human freedom far more than I do, to the point of allowing things to occur which I never would. I confess I don’t understand it. I can’t arbitrarily assign some good things to God’s action and scratch my head in wonder at why He didn’t do more to stop Nazi doctors from diabolically disfiguring the innocent, or African tribes to slaughter babies. It makes no sense that way. The only reckoning I can see is the Final Reckoning at the end of time, not in our world or our time.

I searched for a job for nearly 9 months before I finally found the one I have right now, spent 3-4 months apart from my family while I did it, and nearly had a job in a very different location. I feel strongly, however, that God had a hand in my family landing in this area. I also have faith that the He will provide a way for us to afford to remain in this area despite the excruciatingly high cost of living and gas (ouch!).

Does God interfere? I think sometimes it is very subtle. He does not coerce. He touches hearts and opens minds. He guides us as we are able to receive his influence. Miracles are subtle things mostly. Now do I believe that the big miracles–healings and the like–can still occur? Absolutely! While I may have my doubts occasionally about certain aspects of the gospel, there are certain things I cannot deny. One does deny personal experience that they have had witnessed by the Holy Spirit. It is unwise. Humans can be healed by the power of God.

Even aside from issues of belief in deities or devils, I think humans bring most of their experiences onto themselves, rather than supernatural micromanagement.