An Hour of Peace and Rest

I see two sides to this issue.

I once worked with an investigator who would come to our ward and talk excitedly about how Mormons felt like a real religious community, or extended family, because they were able to be themselves and excitedly talk back and forth before and after the service. He likened our services to orthodox Jewish services in the way children are involved, and that normal family noises such as children bumping about and babies crying are a welcome and expected part of the worship service.

I experience the opposite of this every year when we visit an Episcopalian church for a Christmas service. The church serves a demographic where the congregation for a mainline church is decidedly older and children seem to be a rarity. When we brought our two under-5s last year they were the only children in the sanctuary and several old ladies made the scowls in our direction increasingly obvious at the slightest peeps from the kids.

(That church has a wonderful place, though, where I eventually took the kids – the back of the sanctuary is glassed in and soundproofed, with the sound system piped in but nothing coming out. That way you can both see and hear the service while the kids are screaming their heads off.)

I think there is a middle ground here, just wanted to point out that there is something to be said for the informal noise of our weekly services.

Now that John brought it up, taking the sacrament is not an ordinance. The blessing of the sacrament is. The sacrament is nothing more than a symbolic renewal of our baptismal covenants. It has no intrinsic efficacy. (Argue with me all you want, but you’ll never change my mind on this one and I’m a heretic–Mormons aren’t Catholics.)

I think it’s a result of the cultural conflation of “reverence” and “silence”. There is a place for both, and I personally would like to see “silence” (among adults) in the endowment and during the administration of the sacrament, “quiet reverence” in our chapels generally and “noisy reverence” in the rest of the building – with the exception of some of the Primary time, where “reverence” shouldn’t enter the discussion. I believe kids should learn “quiet reverence” and “silence” for appropriate times, but that nobody should expect silence from them for any extended period of time.

Also, as an aside, I sometimes forget that my current ward is not typical of many wards. Our reverence in the chapel overall tends to be very good, and it is extremely reverent during the administration of the sacrament. When the ONLY sounds that can be heard are the sounds of the infants and youngest children, it is a wonderful experience. It took a couple of years of explicit attention by our former bishop, but the result has been remarkable.

I think I’m more in the camp of those who like the congenial atmosphere prior to the meeting. It feels really welcoming and like a break from the world to greet the people in the ward that one day per week, like a big extended family. I haven’t seen any high fives or chest bumping or whatever, so maybe my ward is just not as over-the-top as yours. Perhaps there is a happy medium.

I for one think that’s a draw to like-minded individuals. I can understand why it might be unfamiliar or “weird” to someone from a different background. My husband and I always joke when we drive past the Catholic church and the local mega-church on our way to our ward that if we switched to one of those churches, no one would notice if we didn’t show up one week, unlike in our ward. I’m not there for the social aspect, but it is like a family.

I think its great to see excitement of members at entering the chapel (especially for what may be a potentially boring sermon). Greeting visitors, seeing friends, carrying in stuff for your Sunday callings, all good. Sometimes that results in a deafening roar and it can definitely cross the line. The already under-appreciated organist would most likely feel more appreciated if she/he didn’t have to press the volume pedal so she/he could hear the music they she/he is playing.

About 18 years ago I served as Bishop in a California ward. The Bishop that served prior to my tenure was very structured & fastidious. He absolutely would not allow conversations above whispers in the chapel for the last 10 minutes before meeting time. He required that his counselors be sitting on the stand on each side of him for those full 10 minutes prior to meeting as ‘examples of reverence.’ If he so much as heard a single person talking out loud, even a child; he would immediately rise to the pulpit and remind the congregation in a surly & condescending manner to ‘whisper & disdain from speaking out loud in the Lord’s house.’ It felt as if we were getting ready for a funeral instead of sacrament meeting.

The Bishop’s company transferred him to another city in the East so, he needed to be released & I was put in as Bishop. The VERY first thing I did as the new Bishop was invite the members to get up out of their seats during those 10 minutes prior to meeting & go greet one another and especially any visitors. I told my counselors that I hoped that not one of us showed up on our ‘Holy Stand of Rameumpton’ until 2-3 minutes before meeting start. Those are our brothers & sisters ‘down there’ & we need to be ‘down there’ with them letting them know that we sincerely love them dearly.

18 years later I am now a second counselor in a Bishopric in more of a mission-field setting in Texas. The Bishop here is a little bit like the Bishop I replaced in California those 18 years ago. He asked me to be his second counselor because of the many years I have had in leadership. Neither he nor I see eye to eye on this reverence issue and we both have strong personalities so, we agreed to disagree however; we have taken it a friendly step further than simply agreeing to disagree.

We noticed that the ward is pretty well split on this reverence matter & so we have decided that when he conducts we will be rather stoically reverent prior to meetings. When I conduct we are talkative & gregarious with one another & yes, we do have to rein ourselves in every now & then but, the warmth & friendliness is sweet. We have explained this process to the ward & they have adopted the two styles very nicely. One side giving into sober reverence during the month Bishop conducts & the other giving into typical Mormon Chit-Chat friendliness when I conduct. When members of the congregation asked the first counselor where he stood on the issue he wisely ‘plead the fifth.’
After about two years of this trade-off process, most of us see the value in each & are very happy to have a chance at both in their season.

I still don’t like sitting up on that ‘Holy Stand of Rameumpton’ high over the congregation; anyone have a workable remedy for this particular kind of nonsense?

I would sure love to see the same type of attitude of #13 taken to the bulk of sacrament meeting sans the sacrament ordinance. Wouldn’t it be cool if there were different tones to sacrament meetings depending on who was conducting? You could have your normal sacrament meetings with talks, you could have your Music and the Spoken word-like meetings, you could have more academic meetings, you could have revival camp meetings, you could have more of discussion-type meetings, etc. etc. I really think it could open up sacrament meeting worship!

And just to make it clear: I have no objection to child noises. It’s the grown-ups that I find disrespectful.

We sort of had this discussion about eating and drinking in church and I seem to recall that people then came down on the same sides as they do now. Eaters thought noise was ok and non eaters didn’t like noise. To me it has to do with what we mean by worship. I personally don’t feel much in the mood to worship when the bishop steps up to open the meeting and the noise suddenly switches off and then gets turned back on again at the end of the sacrament but that’s just me. If there isn’t a happy medium then the noisy ones will win out because there’s more of them and the quite ones will get quieter and more aggravated making sacrament meeting harder and harder to tolerate.

I wonder if we’ve come to view the Temple as our ‘sanctuary’ or quiet place and the chapel as our noiser friendship place.

So, most of you are going to Sacrament Meeting to chat? Not for the worship? All this time I thought I was an old apostate since I hate the meetings.

Seriously, I see nothing wrong with greeting friends and catching up a bit at church– but it should not be in the chapel before, after or during meetings. Some people, apparently a dying breed, have a desire to go to church to be spiritually fed, to contemplate and to feel the spirit. My elderly parents for example. They quit going to Sacrament Meeting a few years ago, partly because of health problems, but partly because they’d been nearly trampled in the rush between wards to get in and out of the chapel, and because with bad hearing, and hearing aids, they had a very hard time hearing the meeting. Good grief, you’ve got the rest of the three hour block– you can’t be quiet before and during the meeting? I’m not talking about kid noises– well except for repeated screechers who aren’t taken out after awhile.

Patrick,

I agree with your main point, but . . .

“Would you go around yelling (or even talk louder then a whisper) if you were in His presence?”

You bet I would. If I saw him outside the temple or the chapel, I’d probably yell his name – and then tell him the latest Mormon joke I had heard. Somehow, I think he would laugh – even if he didn’t think it was funny. He was God, but he also was man. Sometimes we forget that.

#27 Ray

If that is your way to greet our Savior, fine, it is you free agency .

But as for me, I would not yell or throw out a mormon joke to Him but rather fall to His feet and cry all the tears in my body and thank Him softly for His great love for me.

I speak His holy name reverently and with grand respect and love.
I treat His house with the same.

I don’t consider try to explain the behaviors of others as it does this by itself and certainly don’t try to justify this or that.

My choice, my level of understanding, my goal, my respect for the member playing music before meeting and for all those reading their scriptures before the meeting starts is always the highest I can give as is my goal , to be with Heavenly Father in the highest of degrees.

The reverence that should prevail in the chapel is just that…reverence should prevail.

Having 6 children, my husband and I are quick to remind them where they are when the voice was higher the a very quiet whisper.

Noise offends the spirit.

I am so greatful for the reverence in the temple. Of that there is no debate and yet we are so many and how joyful we are when we all meet in the celestial room

with love

Marie

“Noise offends the spirit.”

Sorry, but I don’t buy this for a second. My infant’s cries or shrieks of joy “offend” Diety? Really?

I can’t imagine that the audiences listening to the Savior teach lived up to the silence standard many seek to impose here. He was greeted by teeming masses, not nice orderly congregations. Can folks take their conviviality too far? Just like everything else in life, the answer is yes. But that fact shouldn’t dissuade the rest of us from enjoining in spirited and occasionally loud worship.

OK, not to be antagonistic, but what constitutes “noise”? (It’s the lawyer in me — I loved defined terms.) And if a child’s cry is not “noise,” what is it? Is it acceptable?

I’m a mother of three and a child crying is definitely noise, especially my own children because I might be obligated to take action. But I’d rather not have parents go inactive for the 10-20 years they may have youngsters in tow.

Shawn – here’s the dictionary definition on “noise”:

1. sound, esp. of a loud, harsh, or confused kind: deafening noises. I don’t think we’re talking about this one. Seems like all would agree this goes too far.
2. a sound of any kind: to hear a noise at the door. This hits closer to the mark for those who feel silence = reverence.
3. loud shouting, outcry, or clamor. This covers the kids squawking.
4. a nonharmonious or discordant group of sounds. Ditto number 3.
5. an electric disturbance in a communications system that interferes with or prevents reception of a signal or of information, as the buzz on a telephone or snow on a television screen. I suspect this is more to the heart of what the post is concerned about, although the debate seems to center on whether the spirit can get through or not. For some it can, for others not so much.
6. Informal. extraneous, irrelevant, or meaningless facts, information, statistics, etc.: The noise in the report obscured its useful information. Similar to #5.

There is a disabled girl in our ward who makes loud noises through the entire service, the talks, the sacrament, everything. At first I found it distracting, but I don’t even notice it any more. Our ward cares for this family and their child. We are just glad they are there. Sometimes it’s human nature to have patience for children and the disabled, but when adults do things we don’t like, it’s easy to judge them and let those judgments disrupt our worship. Isn’t that the noise that’s really getting in the way?

*sigh*

#30 (Patrick) – I said He is God. I said he also is man. What you said essentially is the EXACT same point I made, only from the opposite side of the coin.

*sigh*

#31 (Marie) – Patrick’s comment did not imply a reaction **at the moment of first meeting Jesus** – nor did it imply in the chapel or the temple. It was, “Would you go around yelling (or even talk louder then a whisper) if you were in His presence?” I’m sorry if this offends you, but if I am in His presence IN THE WAY THAT THE QUESTION IMPLIES, I am not meeting Him for the first time. In THAT scenario, He is my FRIEND as well as my Lord. You bet I’d call out him name and share a joke or two. I’ve heard my mother, one of the most spiritual persons I’ve ever met, tell the Father a joke during a prayer – because that’s the type of relationship they have.

Everyone:

Not to get snitty, but reading ALL of the comments prior to commenting helps tremendously. I say that because . . .

I said in my very first comment that I believe in silence when appropriate, quiet reverence when appropriate, and noisy reverence when appropriate. I specified SILENCE in the temple and during the sacrament and quiet reverence in the chapel generally. I also said that children should learn BOTH silence and quiet reverence when appropriate. Reading all of the comments prior to commenting would have made that clear.

To be crystal clear, my SIX children are among the quietest, most reverent children in our ward. I have taught them why; they understand.

Sorry for the rant. This was just an egregious example of why all comments need to be read before challenging what someone says.

This is an interesting topic and it got me to thinking: What do I really go to church for? I know I’m supposed to say that it is for the sacrament, but really, I think, it’s for the association of like-minded individuals and to catch up on this and that, to see to the needs of my calling. I love being with people that are so different than me in many ways, that have their own set of problems and concerns, and yet I can identify with and take strength from their examples. We are commanded to meet together “oft” (I don’t know chapter and verse) and “edify one anther”. I think that maybe edification is just another word for mutual support. I know these people, I know that many times they’d rather be someplace else on Sunday, as would I, but because of their commitment to the gospel and the Savior, there they are. So noise is generally a non-issue for me, because it’s part of what I’m there for and because I cause my fair share of it. I do think we should be more restrained when in the chapel that we are sometimes and that a little common sense would go a long ways in that regard. Of course, when talking about common sense, we all know how uncommon it is!

The other thought that occured to me is that, for me, true worship is usually a solitary endeavor. Whether it be scripture study, riding down the road alone talking to myself and the Lord, or even in a group setting, confirmations and thanks are usually received and rendered silently. Church, per se, has little to do with it for me. I guess it’s like they say about baptism: An outward sign of an inward commitment. Meetings for me are an outward sign of a desire to do what Heavenly Father wants of me, even when it’s noisy.

Btw, I apologize if #39 was a bit harsher than usual from me. I just got done with a very frustrating (and LONG) conversation with the phone company, and my efforts to be merciful this month fell through the crack in the ice, I’m afraid.

Ray, you just had to say that you talked to the phone company within the past week and all your sins will be forgiven.

Catherine, somehow I missed #38 – which is the height of irony, given my “read all of the comments” rant.

Thank you for putting this discussion into the proper perspective. Sometimes we lose sight of the beauty simply of being able to “gather together to ask the Lord’s blessing”. I hope you can feel the Spirit in whatever interactions are available to you.

Have you asked your Bishop to authorize a regular group gathering of a selected few who understand and can accommodate your need – to administer the sacrament and share spiritual thoughts, talks and testimonies? It would function much like a family or two in some missions where there are not enough members to constitute an official “unit”. He might have concerns about “exempting” some members from “regular” church attendance, but perhaps those who met with you could do so before meeting with the rest of the ward and then attended their other meetings . . . or just meet with you if that would not be too much of a hardship on the ward.

You’ve probably considered all the options, so that suggestion might be redundant, but I thought I at least should ask.

IQ92, the problem with letting us make our own environment is that (like Lisa) the music is a very important part of my worship environment – maybe the most important. If I can’t hear it over the chatter, then I’m pretty much out of luck.