Comments on: Evidences and Reconciliations 6/02/08 http://mormonmatters.org/2008/06/02/evidences-and-reconciliations-60208/ Exploring Mormon culture in a balanced way Wed, 07 Jan 2009 22:47:27 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6 By: Lumber Jack http://mormonmatters.org/2008/06/02/evidences-and-reconciliations-60208/#comment-18077 Lumber Jack Fri, 06 Jun 2008 13:01:58 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=501#comment-18077 Why not? With an infinite number of gods and an infinite number of planets, one could theorize that at least two of them would like the same planet and want to populate it. Why not? With an infinite number of gods and an infinite number of planets, one could theorize that at least two of them would like the same planet and want to populate it.

]]> By: AdamF http://mormonmatters.org/2008/06/02/evidences-and-reconciliations-60208/#comment-18036 AdamF Fri, 06 Jun 2008 03:27:11 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=501#comment-18036 "shouldn’t we worship his god since he would be greater than him?" The only problem with this is there was no beginning of Gods, so there would be no "greatest" god to worship... It would be like, do we worship our Father, or Grandpa, or Great Grandpa, etc. etc. "Say god’s father wanted some children on this planet also and so did his brother and so on. Since they are all individuals, could it be that they all want to be worshipped differently?" I like your thinking Lumber Jack. Can you imagine two Gods competing to populate the same world? :) “shouldn’t we worship his god since he would be greater than him?”

The only problem with this is there was no beginning of Gods, so there would be no “greatest” god to worship… It would be like, do we worship our Father, or Grandpa, or Great Grandpa, etc. etc.

“Say god’s father wanted some children on this planet also and so did his brother and so on. Since they are all individuals, could it be that they all want to be worshipped differently?”

I like your thinking Lumber Jack. Can you imagine two Gods competing to populate the same world? :)

]]> By: Lumber Jack http://mormonmatters.org/2008/06/02/evidences-and-reconciliations-60208/#comment-18034 Lumber Jack Fri, 06 Jun 2008 03:20:03 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=501#comment-18034 Not that I believe this but that answer kind of brought to mind the Modern/Postmodern view that I was recently confronted with. Since there are "many" gods. Wouldn't it be possible for all religions to have their own "father"? Say god's father wanted some children on this planet also and so did his brother and so on. Since they are all individuals, could it be that they all want to be worshipped differently? And that there has been a savior for all religions? Not that I believe this but that answer kind of brought to mind the Modern/Postmodern view that I was recently confronted with. Since there are “many” gods. Wouldn’t it be possible for all religions to have their own “father”? Say god’s father wanted some children on this planet also and so did his brother and so on. Since they are all individuals, could it be that they all want to be worshipped differently? And that there has been a savior for all religions?

]]> By: Thomas Parkin http://mormonmatters.org/2008/06/02/evidences-and-reconciliations-60208/#comment-17892 Thomas Parkin Thu, 05 Jun 2008 03:10:20 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=501#comment-17892 "shouldn’t we worship his god since he would be greater than him?" I'll take the bait. The answer is no. We worship God because He is our Father. Proceeding with the assumption that our Father had a Father - His Father would not be "greater" in any way. A God is a God, a perfected being is equal to any other perfected being. You can't get greater than the greatest that is possible. We love our God, the Father, because He loved us first, as the scripture says it. If God doesn't have a body, then where is Jesus' body? ~ “shouldn’t we worship his god since he would be greater than him?”

I’ll take the bait.

The answer is no. We worship God because He is our Father. Proceeding with the assumption that our Father had a Father - His Father would not be “greater” in any way. A God is a God, a perfected being is equal to any other perfected being. You can’t get greater than the greatest that is possible. We love our God, the Father, because He loved us first, as the scripture says it.

If God doesn’t have a body, then where is Jesus’ body?

~

]]> By: Ray http://mormonmatters.org/2008/06/02/evidences-and-reconciliations-60208/#comment-17887 Ray Thu, 05 Jun 2008 01:31:44 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=501#comment-17887 #15 - That idea is not "doctrine". It is based on one verse in the Bible and never got developed enough to be considered doctrine. Everyone focuses on it, since it is so unique in the famous couplet, but it's not something we can say was ever taught well enough to end up with "he once worshiped a god also". President Hinckley was being totally honest when he said that we don't teach it. We don't. Honestly, I'm not sure how I feel about it; I just accept that I'll find out at some point in the future - probably at the same time I find out about lots of things I can't say I know for sure. #15 - That idea is not “doctrine”. It is based on one verse in the Bible and never got developed enough to be considered doctrine. Everyone focuses on it, since it is so unique in the famous couplet, but it’s not something we can say was ever taught well enough to end up with “he once worshiped a god also”. President Hinckley was being totally honest when he said that we don’t teach it. We don’t.

Honestly, I’m not sure how I feel about it; I just accept that I’ll find out at some point in the future - probably at the same time I find out about lots of things I can’t say I know for sure.

]]> By: Lumber Jack http://mormonmatters.org/2008/06/02/evidences-and-reconciliations-60208/#comment-17877 Lumber Jack Wed, 04 Jun 2008 22:57:44 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=501#comment-17877 Then how does he have flesh and bones? Since he was once a man like us, living on a planet and then became exhalted. Wouldn't that mean that he once worshiped a god also? And if that is the case, shouldn't we worship his god since he would be greater than him? Then how does he have flesh and bones? Since he was once a man like us, living on a planet and then became exhalted. Wouldn’t that mean that he once worshiped a god also? And if that is the case, shouldn’t we worship his god since he would be greater than him?

]]> By: John Nilsson http://mormonmatters.org/2008/06/02/evidences-and-reconciliations-60208/#comment-17867 John Nilsson Wed, 04 Jun 2008 21:52:27 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=501#comment-17867 Lumber Jack, The theory of evolution answers questions you are not asking. What if God has no beginning? That would solve the conundrum. Lumber Jack,

The theory of evolution answers questions you are not asking.

What if God has no beginning? That would solve the conundrum.

]]> By: Lumber Jack http://mormonmatters.org/2008/06/02/evidences-and-reconciliations-60208/#comment-17774 Lumber Jack Wed, 04 Jun 2008 03:55:03 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=501#comment-17774 #11, Evolution has been proven bunk in so many cases that I wasn't even thinking that. What I was getting at was that the Bible clearly states that we are created beings and that everything that has a beginning has a creator. So who is god's creator? #11, Evolution has been proven bunk in so many cases that I wasn’t even thinking that. What I was getting at was that the Bible clearly states that we are created beings and that everything that has a beginning has a creator. So who is god’s creator?

]]> By: Benjamin O http://mormonmatters.org/2008/06/02/evidences-and-reconciliations-60208/#comment-17734 Benjamin O Tue, 03 Jun 2008 17:34:12 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=501#comment-17734 The problem with all genesis questions, like what Lumber Jack is raising, is that if you think it through far enough, one ultimately reaches the same conclusion--that we don't have a good answer for how it all started. This applies to everyone. The human mind simply can't cope with eternity. We are so stuck in a mindset that refuses to acknowledge anything doesn't have a beginning or has a multiple beginnings, or probabalistic natures. I'm reasonably certain that just as the microscopic scale has proven to have very unusual properties (quantum mechanics), the eternities will too. Very unlike what we now know. The problem with all genesis questions, like what Lumber Jack is raising, is that if you think it through far enough, one ultimately reaches the same conclusion–that we don’t have a good answer for how it all started.

This applies to everyone. The human mind simply can’t cope with eternity. We are so stuck in a mindset that refuses to acknowledge anything doesn’t have a beginning or has a multiple beginnings, or probabalistic natures. I’m reasonably certain that just as the microscopic scale has proven to have very unusual properties (quantum mechanics), the eternities will too.

Very unlike what we now know.

]]> By: hawkgrrrl http://mormonmatters.org/2008/06/02/evidences-and-reconciliations-60208/#comment-17672 hawkgrrrl Tue, 03 Jun 2008 04:03:13 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=501#comment-17672 #9, that's a question that no one can answer in religion or science with any degree of certainty to date. Evolutionists have come up empty handed on your implied question, too. Maybe it was all made in China. #9, that’s a question that no one can answer in religion or science with any degree of certainty to date. Evolutionists have come up empty handed on your implied question, too. Maybe it was all made in China.

]]> By: Ray http://mormonmatters.org/2008/06/02/evidences-and-reconciliations-60208/#comment-17671 Ray Tue, 03 Jun 2008 03:45:15 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=501#comment-17671 #9 - I don't care. :) #9 - I don’t care. :)

]]> By: Lumber Jack http://mormonmatters.org/2008/06/02/evidences-and-reconciliations-60208/#comment-17669 Lumber Jack Tue, 03 Jun 2008 03:29:59 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=501#comment-17669 Just a simple question as the the nature of God. Since "God created the heavens and the Earth" and is also man. Who created Kolob? Just a simple question as the the nature of God. Since “God created the heavens and the Earth” and is also man. Who created Kolob?

]]> By: Ray http://mormonmatters.org/2008/06/02/evidences-and-reconciliations-60208/#comment-17650 Ray Mon, 02 Jun 2008 21:40:03 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=501#comment-17650 If I can figure out what "thtat" is. *groan* If I can figure out what “thtat” is. *groan*

]]> By: Ray http://mormonmatters.org/2008/06/02/evidences-and-reconciliations-60208/#comment-17649 Ray Mon, 02 Jun 2008 21:39:09 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=501#comment-17649 I have no time, so I'll just say that my BFAM and I disagree on this one - in one way. Hopefully, I'll get to thtat tonight. *grin* I have no time, so I’ll just say that my BFAM and I disagree on this one - in one way. Hopefully, I’ll get to thtat tonight. *grin*

]]> By: Just for Quix http://mormonmatters.org/2008/06/02/evidences-and-reconciliations-60208/#comment-17647 Just for Quix Mon, 02 Jun 2008 21:33:18 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=501#comment-17647 Ah John, don't let flattery dim any criticism you wish to give my position ;-) (Always look forward to the discussions that flow out of your E&R posts.) Ah John, don’t let flattery dim any criticism you wish to give my position ;-)
(Always look forward to the discussions that flow out of your E&R posts.)

]]> By: John Nilsson http://mormonmatters.org/2008/06/02/evidences-and-reconciliations-60208/#comment-17646 John Nilsson Mon, 02 Jun 2008 21:25:03 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=501#comment-17646 Just for Quix has spoken. The issue has been resolved. Thanks for playing everyone. :) I always feel like I've attended a graduate divinity seminar after reading one of your responses, Quix. Thanks! Just for Quix has spoken. The issue has been resolved. Thanks for playing everyone. :)
I always feel like I’ve attended a graduate divinity seminar after reading one of your responses, Quix. Thanks!

]]> By: Just for Quix http://mormonmatters.org/2008/06/02/evidences-and-reconciliations-60208/#comment-17640 Just for Quix Mon, 02 Jun 2008 20:21:40 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=501#comment-17640 Care should be taken not to read this Exodus passage literally. There are several reasons for this: 1) Hebrews believed in a paradoxical, spiritual God who could fill expanses, but also indwell the Tabernacle's Holy of Holies. A being of a divine nature encompassing both male and female natures. Definitely not of the same species as Man. 2) The Hebrew words used here in Exodus for "face" and "hand" and "see" all are figurative; "see" (or ra'ah) is commonly used to denote visions. 3) The content and context invites a visionary, figurative reading. The nature of a God is shown so personal as to commune with Man, yet so majestic that even His beloved Moses must be placed in safety in the cleft of the rock to behold a limited scope of His glory. It invites the mind to the mystery of God -- one who personally seeks and redeems Man yet can not be completely beholden, even in vision. The next time Moses beholds the face of God is the transfigured incarnate God, Jesus Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration. Again a mystical event but something has changed. Christ elsewhere is referred to as the Rock, the foundation, the corner stone. Is it a symbolic linking to the cleft rock that sheltered Moses? The cleft in the rock may even symbolize the broken Christ who descended to save all who are His. Yet by this "cleft rock" Moses sees God's face, which seems to support Christ's role as intercessor for man before the Father, someone by whom we can approach God because He became incarnate to redeem us. Tthe Bible's scriptures about God's nature, adding the context of the pre-Enlightenment cultures from which they sprang, invite us, albeit paradoxically, to abandon will, mortal cognitive limitations to marvel upon the sublime, redeeming, merciful, majestic, mysterious nature of God. This illuminates, to my mind, the human nature of reverence and faith -- that we needn't be able to articulate a Westernized God nature like what developed by Nauvoo-era theology in order to make God be more personal and accessible. If we like Paul in Romans 11:36 add our Amen to this cumulative scriptural, paradoxical, mysterious and glorious testament to God we affirm to let the truth be, to rest, to sovereignly exist apart and above us like the Great I Am. Care should be taken not to read this Exodus passage literally. There are several reasons for this: 1) Hebrews believed in a paradoxical, spiritual God who could fill expanses, but also indwell the Tabernacle’s Holy of Holies. A being of a divine nature encompassing both male and female natures. Definitely not of the same species as Man. 2) The Hebrew words used here in Exodus for “face” and “hand” and “see” all are figurative; “see” (or ra’ah) is commonly used to denote visions. 3) The content and context invites a visionary, figurative reading. The nature of a God is shown so personal as to commune with Man, yet so majestic that even His beloved Moses must be placed in safety in the cleft of the rock to behold a limited scope of His glory. It invites the mind to the mystery of God — one who personally seeks and redeems Man yet can not be completely beholden, even in vision.

The next time Moses beholds the face of God is the transfigured incarnate God, Jesus Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration. Again a mystical event but something has changed. Christ elsewhere is referred to as the Rock, the foundation, the corner stone. Is it a symbolic linking to the cleft rock that sheltered Moses? The cleft in the rock may even symbolize the broken Christ who descended to save all who are His. Yet by this “cleft rock” Moses sees God’s face, which seems to support Christ’s role as intercessor for man before the Father, someone by whom we can approach God because He became incarnate to redeem us.

Tthe Bible’s scriptures about God’s nature, adding the context of the pre-Enlightenment cultures from which they sprang, invite us, albeit paradoxically, to abandon will, mortal cognitive limitations to marvel upon the sublime, redeeming, merciful, majestic, mysterious nature of God. This illuminates, to my mind, the human nature of reverence and faith — that we needn’t be able to articulate a Westernized God nature like what developed by Nauvoo-era theology in order to make God be more personal and accessible. If we like Paul in Romans 11:36 add our Amen to this cumulative scriptural, paradoxical, mysterious and glorious testament to God we affirm to let the truth be, to rest, to sovereignly exist apart and above us like the Great I Am.

]]> By: Hawkgrrrl http://mormonmatters.org/2008/06/02/evidences-and-reconciliations-60208/#comment-17639 Hawkgrrrl Mon, 02 Jun 2008 20:12:20 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=501#comment-17639 The first great commandment is to love God and the second is like unto it: love thy neighbor as thyself. God is perfect; therefore, He is the one able to do these two things perfectly. Hence, God is love. But, God = love in some groovy, 60s way or love is like a warm puppy? Meh. The first great commandment is to love God and the second is like unto it: love thy neighbor as thyself. God is perfect; therefore, He is the one able to do these two things perfectly. Hence, God is love.

But, God = love in some groovy, 60s way or love is like a warm puppy? Meh.

]]> By: John Nilsson http://mormonmatters.org/2008/06/02/evidences-and-reconciliations-60208/#comment-17635 John Nilsson Mon, 02 Jun 2008 19:51:02 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=501#comment-17635 Yep, on my mission in Germany I met quite a few who believed exactly that. Yep, on my mission in Germany I met quite a few who believed exactly that.

]]> By: Kent http://mormonmatters.org/2008/06/02/evidences-and-reconciliations-60208/#comment-17634 Kent Mon, 02 Jun 2008 19:49:34 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=501#comment-17634 I'm a spirit, who just also happens to have a body. Now God being love...have you found anyone that believes that God is an impersonal love force? I’m a spirit, who just also happens to have a body. Now God being love…have you found anyone that believes that God is an impersonal love force?

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