“Yet, the one thing I feel is great about tithing is that it’s always the same, regardless of what you make. 10% on a thousand or a million. It’s not a wealth redistribution model.”

That’s the one thing I wish tithing were more of on an individual level: a wealth redistribution model. On a global level, it already is. U.S. Saints are collectively subsidizing Church infrastructure in the rest of the world. And fast offerings in my SLC ward take money from the better-off and give it to the worse-off. An admirable system, I might add.

I have heard that before but there are two problems with that assumption:

1. There is no evidence for it.
2. There is no evidence for it.

I have read many biographies of General Authorities at the apostle level and above and this is never even hinted at. I suspect this notion is spread by CES for some reason.

One interesting recent clue that General Authorities continue to live as the rest of us financially is that President Monson, in the last conference, talked about joking with his hospitalized wife about possibly being late on their quarterly income tax payments.

When one owes taxes payable on a quarterly basis, one has a pretty significant income, larger, I would assume, than is “sufficient for one’s needs”.

If you can find evidence of this, I would love to see it. I suspect some people are comforted by the idea that someone, somewhere, is living the law of consecration.

It’s also interesting that those who most decry any salaries are those who complain they paid tithing on their small salary. Yet, the one thing I feel is great about tithing is that it’s always the same, regardless of what you make. 10% on a thousand or a million. It’s not a wealth redistribution model. Just a model of equal faith and sacrifice for all, regardless of one’s means. It seems to me that there is a real problem with pride among those who struggle financially (as seen on the salamander site link); some seem to covet their meager wealth more than those of greater means do.

But this one caught my eye (typos probably cleaned up):

My uncle is in the First Quorum of the Seventy. He does not make $75,000 a year. He makes more like $48,000. All of the perks the writer alluded to are partially true. They get great health insurance, some retirement, and free tickets to college games. The do not own a Satellite system. They do have a couple of limousines. GBH is old and doesn’t drive anymore. He also has very tight security. I asked my Aunt if her life was better or worse since my Uncle was called to be a GA. He made more money as an attorney, and they sold a couple of business because of his extensive travel schedule. She say’s she has no regrets, but they are not getting rich either. Just some information. – 03/05/2002 – K from the recovery bulletin board

In a simplistic perspective, these men are paid a salary; something that is juxtaposed to the statements about righteous leaders in the BoM. I am reminded of the Savior’s words to the Nephites in 3 Nephi 12. Regarding the 12 disciples, the Lord encourages the multitude to give heed to those “whom I have chosen from among you to minister unto you, and to be your servants…” The key word here is servants. This thread, I believe, was intended to contrast these two positions.

The biggest difference between the times of the BoM leaders and today is that a person cannot normally survive on the fruits of their own labors. King Benjamin raised his own crops. He was able to provide sustenance from the land for those of his household. I don’t see how we can easily do that today being so entwined in ‘Mammon.’ Does the church have any choice but to compensate the ‘full time’ administrators of the organization? Probably not.

Too bad we couldn’t simply have them work with their bishop to receive their needs from Welfare just as others who are not able to meed the needs of their life. Could you imagine how humble these men would be if they had to stand in line behind the commoners with hard luck? I have often thought that the true significance is lost of the Savior’s parable of the greatest being the least in heaven. We may all be surprised in its application.

Just because an organization professing to be of the Body may be large and wealthy does not shift this ownership. The Levite temple class were supported by the Jewish nation in order to function in their role. Paul and the other apostles lived by the support of the believers at times; other times they performed jobs had they crafts and skills. In the Didache we see a great picture of the early church functioning in practice. Early Christians, for example, were asked to house and feed traveling ministers; similarly those same clergy were given limits so as not to burden individual members of the Body.

It would be easier to arbitrate nowadays, I suppose, if there were clear biblical rules that established the checks and balances between the Body and its called leadership. Yet there are basic principles of what is often called Christian Liberty. An individual Christian has the opportunity to sanctify their giving unto the Lord and still have visibility to where that is used. It is also Godly for leadership to operate with order, to work for trust and accountability of the Body. It’s seems reasonable there should be some give and take: intercommunication and accountability with a growing and abiding trust. I don’t disagree with those who say the Lord’s is a house of order. But is it wise to make it into a house giving orders?

The LDS church has the opportunity to behave in a way that fosters trust and encourages accountability. They could do better. While I think they desire (and may deserve) trust of its membership, and try to operate on business measures of accountability (read: audits), they do not act like they honor the primacy and vitality of the Body. Instead they honor hierarchical order.

In its lack of financial transparency The LDS church can breed suspicion where none may be deserved. It also, in areas where its membership has the most touchpoints, cuts corners. The professionalism needed in full-time local ministry, counseling and guidance are left up to a staff of lay clergy who may or may not be trained well, who may or may not perform to the level a local congregation needs. Despite the sustaining “voting” mechanism there isn’t a practical spirit of consensual accountability. Volunteerism is not harnessed in a spirit of liberty and consensual respect either. Though well-intentioned, subtly the methods divert accountability and empowerment where it belongs: with righteous liberty among the Body.

I think there’s a reason the person didn’t include a name. Whoever wrote that comment seems to be under the common misperception that the FP is more “prestigious” (or higher up in the chain of command) and therefore would “make a higher salary” than the members of the Q12. It’s like believing that a counselor in a stake presidency is more important than a Bishop – or that a counselor in a bishopric is more important than the Elders’ Quorum President or the High Priests Group Leader. Understandable, but instructive.

“I used to work as a FULL TIME Church auditor. The First Presidency pull down salaries of $425,000 per year, each, and also full health insurance, life insurance, and other PERTS, including a brand new chauffered limousine, and of course, all expenses paid on Church business. President Hinckley has an office that takes up nearly half of one of the Church office building floors, complete with expensive hardwoods, marble in the sinks and all of the other amenities that would say you were in the Presence of the Pope and NOT in the presence of a humble apostle of the Lord.

Apostles pull down $125,000 per year in salary, and of course, the same benefits as the FIRST Presidency.

Seventies are at $72,000 per year in salary, plus benefits.

Now, some of these men refuse to accept any salary from the Church, as they are independently wealthy, having acquired their own wealth in their own businesses. But for the most part, that is not the case.

Now, I actually audited Church records up on the 16th Floor of the Church auditing department, but never actually audited these records. I was just told about them.”

Of course, the author of this comment did not include his name. Another added that he had a friend in the auditing department that validated these numbers.

Is this accurate? Not known. I don’t have personal knowledge of the books of the church. There are some other items that I do believe are accurate. The first presidency each have drivers and limos. The penthouse suite used by the prophet is worth several million dollars. Up until recently, GAs could receive compensation for serving on corporate boards. Of course, it has been sixty years since the church released any financial information. If you go back to conference before 1950, there was a much more detailed financial statement provided to members. Not any more.

“I doubt seriously it is $200K”

Ray–when was the last time that you had to make quarterly estimated tax payments? Do you know how much you need to make to be required to make these payments?

YOU are the one who mentioned seeing a job description with a specific salary range – so YOU are the one who appeared to be talking about a “real job”. Make it one or the other – real or one pulled out of thin air. I’m talking about reality.