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	<title>Comments on: Ignoring Scripture</title>
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		<title>By: Just for Quix</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/05/ignoring-scripture/#comment-22362</link>
		<dc:creator>Just for Quix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 18:47:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=615#comment-22362</guid>
		<description>Nice perspective Ron (13). I think what you are describing can be readily circumscribed within the teachings on the Gifts of the Spirit. Those who have the eyes and ears are literally prophets (Greek: prophetes: an interpreter, spokesman, truth-teller) to us who don&#039;t have those gifts. I know that term &quot;prophet&quot; is a term upon which it is hard to have interfaith dialogue and understanding, especially since to LDS the term gets down to issues of &quot;authority,&quot; &quot;Priesthood&quot; and &quot;keys&quot; rather than to spiritual gifts and roles. I add my point to write an exclamation point behind the truth I think you are getting at in your post: that those among us who bring clarity to scripture are not always just learned, smart or well-spoken; oft-times they are divinely bestowed with a gift. (And if they don&#039;t have the latter, can they really be truth-tellers into our lives?)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice perspective Ron (13). I think what you are describing can be readily circumscribed within the teachings on the Gifts of the Spirit. Those who have the eyes and ears are literally prophets (Greek: prophetes: an interpreter, spokesman, truth-teller) to us who don&#8217;t have those gifts. I know that term &#8220;prophet&#8221; is a term upon which it is hard to have interfaith dialogue and understanding, especially since to LDS the term gets down to issues of &#8220;authority,&#8221; &#8220;Priesthood&#8221; and &#8220;keys&#8221; rather than to spiritual gifts and roles. I add my point to write an exclamation point behind the truth I think you are getting at in your post: that those among us who bring clarity to scripture are not always just learned, smart or well-spoken; oft-times they are divinely bestowed with a gift. (And if they don&#8217;t have the latter, can they really be truth-tellers into our lives?)</p>
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		<title>By: Ron</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/05/ignoring-scripture/#comment-22358</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 18:33:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=615#comment-22358</guid>
		<description>Most people who appear to ignore difficult scriptures are doing so because they are unaware of what the scripture is really saying.

Several years ago my children asked me what my favorite scripture was.  I told them it was Genesis 27:11.  “And Jacob said to Rebekah his mother, Behold, Esau my brother is a hairy man, and I am a smooth man:”  My children were delighted and the two oldest memorized the verse, with a long stress on the “smooth.”

A week later our oldest son Andy was assigned to recite his favorite scripture in Primary.  He decided that his favorite was Genesis 27:11.  After I had somewhat appeased his mother, we agreed that he could recite this verse.

That Sunday, my brother and I sat in the back of the primary to see what would happen.  Andy walked up the lectern and in a clear loud voice recited Genesis 27:11.

Nothing happened.  Other than my brother and me, nobody laughed, raised eyebrows, or changed expression.  Nobody was listening.   Primary finished with the primary president thanking Andy and the other children for participating.

I have discovered in our family scripture reading and in teaching early morning seminary for that last four years, that many people have trouble understanding the clear meaning of a scripture.  My wife and several of my older children cannot readily understand a scripture.  They are spiritual and bright.  My wife was valedictorian at her High School.  But interpreting the scriptures they read eludes them.

Often when we are reading the Book of Mormon or New Testament as a family, my wife will ask what a scripture means.  I will turn to my youngest daughter and have her explain it. My youngest daughter has been able to understand scripture since before she was twelve.

I have discovered the same thing in seminary.  The gift of understanding scriptures is not evenly distributed.  It does not seem to be a matter of who is the most spiritual or even the best student.  Some students have the gift, some do not.  It may be because some have the ability to read scriptures as they are rather than as they should be.

Or as the scriptures say, “Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not?”  Mark 8:18.  See Isaiah 6:10.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Most people who appear to ignore difficult scriptures are doing so because they are unaware of what the scripture is really saying.</p>
<p>Several years ago my children asked me what my favorite scripture was.  I told them it was Genesis 27:11.  “And Jacob said to Rebekah his mother, Behold, Esau my brother is a hairy man, and I am a smooth man:”  My children were delighted and the two oldest memorized the verse, with a long stress on the “smooth.”</p>
<p>A week later our oldest son Andy was assigned to recite his favorite scripture in Primary.  He decided that his favorite was Genesis 27:11.  After I had somewhat appeased his mother, we agreed that he could recite this verse.</p>
<p>That Sunday, my brother and I sat in the back of the primary to see what would happen.  Andy walked up the lectern and in a clear loud voice recited Genesis 27:11.</p>
<p>Nothing happened.  Other than my brother and me, nobody laughed, raised eyebrows, or changed expression.  Nobody was listening.   Primary finished with the primary president thanking Andy and the other children for participating.</p>
<p>I have discovered in our family scripture reading and in teaching early morning seminary for that last four years, that many people have trouble understanding the clear meaning of a scripture.  My wife and several of my older children cannot readily understand a scripture.  They are spiritual and bright.  My wife was valedictorian at her High School.  But interpreting the scriptures they read eludes them.</p>
<p>Often when we are reading the Book of Mormon or New Testament as a family, my wife will ask what a scripture means.  I will turn to my youngest daughter and have her explain it. My youngest daughter has been able to understand scripture since before she was twelve.</p>
<p>I have discovered the same thing in seminary.  The gift of understanding scriptures is not evenly distributed.  It does not seem to be a matter of who is the most spiritual or even the best student.  Some students have the gift, some do not.  It may be because some have the ability to read scriptures as they are rather than as they should be.</p>
<p>Or as the scriptures say, “Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not?”  Mark 8:18.  See Isaiah 6:10.</p>
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		<title>By: Kent</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/05/ignoring-scripture/#comment-22326</link>
		<dc:creator>Kent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 16:24:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=615#comment-22326</guid>
		<description>Great post Stephen! You always leave me happy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post Stephen! You always leave me happy.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/05/ignoring-scripture/#comment-22230</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 20:57:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=615#comment-22230</guid>
		<description>Amen, Stephen.  Amen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amen, Stephen.  Amen.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Marsh</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/05/ignoring-scripture/#comment-22190</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Marsh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 12:16:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;b&gt;and assume the standard or commonly accepted interpretation only&lt;/b&gt; -- which always gets my attention, especially when it has nothing to do with what the words are saying.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>and assume the standard or commonly accepted interpretation only</b> &#8212; which always gets my attention, especially when it has nothing to do with what the words are saying.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/05/ignoring-scripture/#comment-22178</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 04:38:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=615#comment-22178</guid>
		<description>and remember, #12 is coming from a hardcore parser.  I should have said we can take everything literally **and assume the standard or commonly accepted interpretation only**.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>and remember, #12 is coming from a hardcore parser.  I should have said we can take everything literally **and assume the standard or commonly accepted interpretation only**.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/05/ignoring-scripture/#comment-22177</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 04:35:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=615#comment-22177</guid>
		<description>Let me add #12 - the one that qualifies but never gets discussed in this type of context: 

We can read every scripture and passage literally, since that allows us to shut off our brains and just assume we are reading the unabridged, immutable, pure, infallible word of God.  Who has to think when God&#039;s perfect word is staring at you from the page?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let me add #12 &#8211; the one that qualifies but never gets discussed in this type of context: </p>
<p>We can read every scripture and passage literally, since that allows us to shut off our brains and just assume we are reading the unabridged, immutable, pure, infallible word of God.  Who has to think when God&#8217;s perfect word is staring at you from the page?</p>
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		<title>By: Jared</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/05/ignoring-scripture/#comment-22175</link>
		<dc:creator>Jared</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 04:10:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=615#comment-22175</guid>
		<description>Stephen--great post! This will be on my mind for some time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stephen&#8211;great post! This will be on my mind for some time.</p>
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		<title>By: hawkgrrrl</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/05/ignoring-scripture/#comment-22172</link>
		<dc:creator>hawkgrrrl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 03:42:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=615#comment-22172</guid>
		<description>Not in the same spirit, but I like to ignore the Isaiah rehash in 2 Nephi, the war chapters in Alma, and the entire books of Numbers and Leviticus.  Also not a big fan of the book of Revelation.  In the spirit you intended, I like to ignore all the scriptures that say anything about no economic inequity (the early church having all things in common) and that it&#039;s easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man get into Heaven.  And most of what it says about women.  Taking it even further, the entire word of wisdom is an example of taking what the scriptures say and adding much much more to them.  It starts out &quot;not by way of commandment,&quot; but yes, it&#039;s a total commandment now and much more specific in what it means than in how it was written and received by Joseph (and in fact in how he and early church members adhered).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not in the same spirit, but I like to ignore the Isaiah rehash in 2 Nephi, the war chapters in Alma, and the entire books of Numbers and Leviticus.  Also not a big fan of the book of Revelation.  In the spirit you intended, I like to ignore all the scriptures that say anything about no economic inequity (the early church having all things in common) and that it&#8217;s easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man get into Heaven.  And most of what it says about women.  Taking it even further, the entire word of wisdom is an example of taking what the scriptures say and adding much much more to them.  It starts out &#8220;not by way of commandment,&#8221; but yes, it&#8217;s a total commandment now and much more specific in what it means than in how it was written and received by Joseph (and in fact in how he and early church members adhered).</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Marsh</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/05/ignoring-scripture/#comment-22163</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Marsh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 02:56:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Ok, that made me smile.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok, that made me smile.</p>
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		<title>By: DavidH</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/05/ignoring-scripture/#comment-22157</link>
		<dc:creator>DavidH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 02:28:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=615#comment-22157</guid>
		<description>Had Paul been writing today, he (or a subsequent redactor, maybe a correlation committee) might have said or written, instead, something like:

&quot;Therefore, I would that all men each Sunday would wear white shirts and ties as the uniform of the Priesthood;

&quot;And, I would that no woman would offer the opening prayer in a Sacrament meeting,

&quot;And, doth not Nature itself teach that if a man or woman voteth for a liberal democrat, it is a shame and anathema.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Had Paul been writing today, he (or a subsequent redactor, maybe a correlation committee) might have said or written, instead, something like:</p>
<p>&#8220;Therefore, I would that all men each Sunday would wear white shirts and ties as the uniform of the Priesthood;</p>
<p>&#8220;And, I would that no woman would offer the opening prayer in a Sacrament meeting,</p>
<p>&#8220;And, doth not Nature itself teach that if a man or woman voteth for a liberal democrat, it is a shame and anathema.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Marsh</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/05/ignoring-scripture/#comment-22147</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Marsh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 00:11:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=615#comment-22147</guid>
		<description>After Ray&#039;s comment, I was really hoping for something spectacular for this thread.  Guess it has been drowned in a sea of same sex marriage attention.  Maybe I should have used a different proof text.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After Ray&#8217;s comment, I was really hoping for something spectacular for this thread.  Guess it has been drowned in a sea of same sex marriage attention.  Maybe I should have used a different proof text.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Marsh</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/05/ignoring-scripture/#comment-22117</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Marsh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jul 2008 20:19:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=615#comment-22117</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;and quit thinking our way is the only way, and anyone who disagrees is a blind, stupid sheep or an evil liar&lt;/b&gt;

That is important.  We can only learn from God if we acknowledge that we do not know (at least in the normal course, God does hit some people over the head to break them out of the blindness they&#039;ve created).

Liked your comments Ray.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>and quit thinking our way is the only way, and anyone who disagrees is a blind, stupid sheep or an evil liar</b></p>
<p>That is important.  We can only learn from God if we acknowledge that we do not know (at least in the normal course, God does hit some people over the head to break them out of the blindness they&#8217;ve created).</p>
<p>Liked your comments Ray.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/05/ignoring-scripture/#comment-22110</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jul 2008 19:51:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=615#comment-22110</guid>
		<description>&quot;“Let your women keep silence in the churches for it is not permitted unto them to speak.” 

The tenth way is to read the words in verses like this (potentially cultural statements included in epistles to a specific people) as addressed to the specific people reading them and no one else - including others of that same time.  I have heard this particular verse parsed thusly: 

Your traditions and culture in Corinth do not permit women to speak in church.  &quot;It is not permitted unto them&quot; here in Corinth.  Therefore, just as we should not eat meat in the presence of vegetarians, &quot;your women (should) keep silence in the churches&quot; - even though the women in Thessalonica can speak in the churches there.  

This view is bolstered by the same admonition about speaking in tongues without an interpreter in 1 Cor. 14:28.  

The eleventh way is to attribute the idea to the speaker - as a personal statement, not as a command from God.  In the case of women remaining silent in church, this is bolstered by 1 Tim. 2:11-12 - where Paul repeats the general instruction then adds, &quot;I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.&quot;  The implication can be read in such a wording that this is Paul&#039;s bias - that HE &quot;suffers not a woman to teach, usurp or speak&quot;, but that this did not come from above (neither from Peter nor from God).   

Yeah, we can understand statements in just about any way we choose, so I believe it is up to us to do so in whatever way makes the most sense to us - and quit thinking our way is the only way, and anyone who disagrees is a blind, stupid sheep or an evil liar.  That is good advice for all, imho.  Do the best you can to gain a personal understanding and allow others the same privilege without getting riled up or snotty and condescending.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;“Let your women keep silence in the churches for it is not permitted unto them to speak.” </p>
<p>The tenth way is to read the words in verses like this (potentially cultural statements included in epistles to a specific people) as addressed to the specific people reading them and no one else &#8211; including others of that same time.  I have heard this particular verse parsed thusly: </p>
<p>Your traditions and culture in Corinth do not permit women to speak in church.  &#8220;It is not permitted unto them&#8221; here in Corinth.  Therefore, just as we should not eat meat in the presence of vegetarians, &#8220;your women (should) keep silence in the churches&#8221; &#8211; even though the women in Thessalonica can speak in the churches there.  </p>
<p>This view is bolstered by the same admonition about speaking in tongues without an interpreter in 1 Cor. 14:28.  </p>
<p>The eleventh way is to attribute the idea to the speaker &#8211; as a personal statement, not as a command from God.  In the case of women remaining silent in church, this is bolstered by 1 Tim. 2:11-12 &#8211; where Paul repeats the general instruction then adds, &#8220;I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.&#8221;  The implication can be read in such a wording that this is Paul&#8217;s bias &#8211; that HE &#8220;suffers not a woman to teach, usurp or speak&#8221;, but that this did not come from above (neither from Peter nor from God).   </p>
<p>Yeah, we can understand statements in just about any way we choose, so I believe it is up to us to do so in whatever way makes the most sense to us &#8211; and quit thinking our way is the only way, and anyone who disagrees is a blind, stupid sheep or an evil liar.  That is good advice for all, imho.  Do the best you can to gain a personal understanding and allow others the same privilege without getting riled up or snotty and condescending.</p>
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