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	<title>Comments on: Virtual Co-Ed RS/PH:  Missionary Work (Lesson 12)</title>
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		<title>By: Bill</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/06/virtual-co-ed-rsph-missionary-work-lesson-12/#comment-22445</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 00:38:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=585#comment-22445</guid>
		<description>#9--Ray, I&#039;d really like to see some documentation for what you are saying.  From my experience, what you describe is incredibly uncommon in the church.

-Mom&#039;s clubs?  Are you talking about enrichment night?
-Preschools, at an LDS church?  Or is this a couple women in the ward getting together and having a preschool group?
-Summer Vacation Bible school?  Is this a primary activity day or a proper kids bible school?

&quot;When there is a need that the city council feels would overwhelm everyone else, they turn to us.&quot;

-There is a great tendancy among members of the church to overstate the church&#039;s role in dealing with various things.  Some members make it sound like the church is the sole provider of support for major worldwide disasters.  The reality is that church involvement is usually incredibly small.  I&#039;d be impressed to see anything that backs up your claim.

&quot;despite the Brethren constantly encouraging them.&quot;

-The brethren constantly encourage LDS wards to sponsor vacation bible schools?  Preschools?  I guess I missed the memo.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#9&#8211;Ray, I&#8217;d really like to see some documentation for what you are saying.  From my experience, what you describe is incredibly uncommon in the church.</p>
<p>-Mom&#8217;s clubs?  Are you talking about enrichment night?<br />
-Preschools, at an LDS church?  Or is this a couple women in the ward getting together and having a preschool group?<br />
-Summer Vacation Bible school?  Is this a primary activity day or a proper kids bible school?</p>
<p>&#8220;When there is a need that the city council feels would overwhelm everyone else, they turn to us.&#8221;</p>
<p>-There is a great tendancy among members of the church to overstate the church&#8217;s role in dealing with various things.  Some members make it sound like the church is the sole provider of support for major worldwide disasters.  The reality is that church involvement is usually incredibly small.  I&#8217;d be impressed to see anything that backs up your claim.</p>
<p>&#8220;despite the Brethren constantly encouraging them.&#8221;</p>
<p>-The brethren constantly encourage LDS wards to sponsor vacation bible schools?  Preschools?  I guess I missed the memo.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/06/virtual-co-ed-rsph-missionary-work-lesson-12/#comment-22397</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 21:06:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=585#comment-22397</guid>
		<description>#8 - Fwiw, everything you mention that other churches so happens in our stake in multiple wards.  One ward in particular has amazing service-based relationship with the largest city within its boundaries.  When there is a need that the city council feels would overwhelm everyone else, they turn to us.  

The issue with regard to these things, imo, is not that they are not present or discouraged in the Church, but rather that they simply aren&#039;t done in many wards - despite the Brethren constantly encouraging them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#8 &#8211; Fwiw, everything you mention that other churches so happens in our stake in multiple wards.  One ward in particular has amazing service-based relationship with the largest city within its boundaries.  When there is a need that the city council feels would overwhelm everyone else, they turn to us.  </p>
<p>The issue with regard to these things, imo, is not that they are not present or discouraged in the Church, but rather that they simply aren&#8217;t done in many wards &#8211; despite the Brethren constantly encouraging them.</p>
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		<title>By: Missed RS yesterday</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/06/virtual-co-ed-rsph-missionary-work-lesson-12/#comment-22391</link>
		<dc:creator>Missed RS yesterday</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 20:37:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=585#comment-22391</guid>
		<description># 4 &amp; 7

IMO, proselytizing is counter-productive … raising more resistance than creating community relationships.  In my ward, the converts that have ‘lasted’ have been predominately spouses / family members of current ward members.  Others drop out within weeks.

I believe that outreach to the community in non-threatening ways would be much more successful ... may be not numerically ... but in building positive relationships.  In my community, there are Protestant churches which have attracted families with children by hosting / sponsoring activities such as Mom’s clubs, preschools, and summer Vacation Bible School for children.  These churches are very welcoming … not pushy at all.  The majority of participants did not, at least initially attend these Protestant churches ... but join because of the positive interactions with members.

In contrast, my own ward / stake sponsors an annual “Emergency Preparedness” fair  that is open to the public but mainly attended by ward / stake members.  Who would feel comfortable attending a seemingly &#039;secular&#039; event and then being approached by missionaries ?

Additionally, non-LDS congregations in the community often have community service committees in which members donate time / resources to efforts with groups such as the local soup kitchen and Habitat for Humanity chapter.  The relationships these churches have with community groups are often long standing.    I have not seen anything even close to these types of relationships in the LDS community.   I think that focusing efforts of LDS youth / seniors toward community service / relationships would foster a lot more positives than the current proselytizing focus.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p># 4 &amp; 7</p>
<p>IMO, proselytizing is counter-productive … raising more resistance than creating community relationships.  In my ward, the converts that have ‘lasted’ have been predominately spouses / family members of current ward members.  Others drop out within weeks.</p>
<p>I believe that outreach to the community in non-threatening ways would be much more successful &#8230; may be not numerically &#8230; but in building positive relationships.  In my community, there are Protestant churches which have attracted families with children by hosting / sponsoring activities such as Mom’s clubs, preschools, and summer Vacation Bible School for children.  These churches are very welcoming … not pushy at all.  The majority of participants did not, at least initially attend these Protestant churches &#8230; but join because of the positive interactions with members.</p>
<p>In contrast, my own ward / stake sponsors an annual “Emergency Preparedness” fair  that is open to the public but mainly attended by ward / stake members.  Who would feel comfortable attending a seemingly &#8216;secular&#8217; event and then being approached by missionaries ?</p>
<p>Additionally, non-LDS congregations in the community often have community service committees in which members donate time / resources to efforts with groups such as the local soup kitchen and Habitat for Humanity chapter.  The relationships these churches have with community groups are often long standing.    I have not seen anything even close to these types of relationships in the LDS community.   I think that focusing efforts of LDS youth / seniors toward community service / relationships would foster a lot more positives than the current proselytizing focus.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: hawkgrrrl</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/06/virtual-co-ed-rsph-missionary-work-lesson-12/#comment-22275</link>
		<dc:creator>hawkgrrrl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 05:28:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=585#comment-22275</guid>
		<description>Ann - Maybe in the next upgrade.

Brett - I haven&#039;t heard some of those stats before either.  I agree that more non-proselyting community focus, especially service or charity-oriented would be very useful, both in creating more spiritual development for members and in increasing recognition of the church; it is also a great opportunity for inter-faith projects, which I&#039;m starting to see happen where we live.  Too often as church members we just have a social at the church but bring items to the church or write a check without really interacting with the recipients of our donations.  Again, this is something I see changing in our ward.  On the good-better-best scale, maybe that fits in the good or better, but not the best.  There is something powerful in the insular ward family that needs to be retained as well.

I also just worry about what we do when someone is clearly struggling and perhaps creating what some might consider a nuisance due to their struggle.  I&#039;d like to see more going out of our way to make sure people feel heard and understood with compassion.  I see some of this, but some of the eye rolling or exasperation when people are having difficulty.  People in that kind of crisis aren&#039;t always pleasant (can be negative and somewhat disruptive), frankly, but I still hope we can get past our own discomfort to help them through it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ann &#8211; Maybe in the next upgrade.</p>
<p>Brett &#8211; I haven&#8217;t heard some of those stats before either.  I agree that more non-proselyting community focus, especially service or charity-oriented would be very useful, both in creating more spiritual development for members and in increasing recognition of the church; it is also a great opportunity for inter-faith projects, which I&#8217;m starting to see happen where we live.  Too often as church members we just have a social at the church but bring items to the church or write a check without really interacting with the recipients of our donations.  Again, this is something I see changing in our ward.  On the good-better-best scale, maybe that fits in the good or better, but not the best.  There is something powerful in the insular ward family that needs to be retained as well.</p>
<p>I also just worry about what we do when someone is clearly struggling and perhaps creating what some might consider a nuisance due to their struggle.  I&#8217;d like to see more going out of our way to make sure people feel heard and understood with compassion.  I see some of this, but some of the eye rolling or exasperation when people are having difficulty.  People in that kind of crisis aren&#8217;t always pleasant (can be negative and somewhat disruptive), frankly, but I still hope we can get past our own discomfort to help them through it.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Just for Quix</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/06/virtual-co-ed-rsph-missionary-work-lesson-12/#comment-22272</link>
		<dc:creator>Just for Quix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 04:29:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=585#comment-22272</guid>
		<description>Brett (4): Thanks for the thought you put into your reply. Dunno where you got your stats, but we are part of that &quot;43%&quot; who pursued spiritual needs elsewhere. I still have some good associations with the LDS church, culturally and through family, though. I especially like your suggestions revolving around missional activities (community service and visibility; practicing the gospel of action and service vs. proselytizing; adapting to meet needs; etc.) and consensual relationship in service, callings, and etc., between the laity and the leadership.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brett (4): Thanks for the thought you put into your reply. Dunno where you got your stats, but we are part of that &#8220;43%&#8221; who pursued spiritual needs elsewhere. I still have some good associations with the LDS church, culturally and through family, though. I especially like your suggestions revolving around missional activities (community service and visibility; practicing the gospel of action and service vs. proselytizing; adapting to meet needs; etc.) and consensual relationship in service, callings, and etc., between the laity and the leadership.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: tk</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/06/virtual-co-ed-rsph-missionary-work-lesson-12/#comment-22269</link>
		<dc:creator>tk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 04:08:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=585#comment-22269</guid>
		<description>I think another comparison to review is that of our current missionary program to the role of a Nazarite.  What are the similarities and differences?

Nazarites were usually called for a limited period of time and took specific vows.  I see this similar to our missionaries who also live by “mission rules”
Nazarites don&#039;t drink strong drink 
Nazarites may have odd diets (honey and locust)- this would be the same for missionaries dining at members homes...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think another comparison to review is that of our current missionary program to the role of a Nazarite.  What are the similarities and differences?</p>
<p>Nazarites were usually called for a limited period of time and took specific vows.  I see this similar to our missionaries who also live by “mission rules”<br />
Nazarites don&#8217;t drink strong drink<br />
Nazarites may have odd diets (honey and locust)- this would be the same for missionaries dining at members homes&#8230;</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Brett</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/06/virtual-co-ed-rsph-missionary-work-lesson-12/#comment-22258</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 01:45:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=585#comment-22258</guid>
		<description>Differentiate between missionary work inside the church and outside:
For missionary work inside the church, research shows that 43% of LDS disaffiliates left due to unmet spiritual needs. Of former LDS surveyed, 58% switched to other faiths or practices (mostly Christian). Of those with no current religious preference, 36% continued to pray often or daily.  Studies show that people leaving the church is rarely about being offended.  What can we learn from those who have left (either officially or unofficially)?

In the quest for new converts, there is no question that we need to get well beyond beating up members for not providing enough referrals and think more broadly as an institution.  The following would go along way toward helping the church to be seen as an important part of the community (outside of Utah) and open up many missionary opportunities.
•	Community focused – affiliation with community agencies - We simply do not have the resources in many areas of the church that a social worker would have at his/her disposal.  Those resources are sorely needed at times.
•	Open up all activities to the community (by advertising them and actively inviting community members)
•	Utilize the experience of everyone.  Sometimes it seems that we give people callings where they are uncomfortable and or doing things they really don&#039;t enjoy.  A ward is a wide spectrum of abilities and talents.  Allow peoples talents to shine, rather than giving people callings that are a really poor fit and drive them out of the church.  This would require that leadership really knows who people are, what they do, hobbies, gifts, etc.
•	Church buildings should be centrally located to the community (as a visual reminder that we are here and an important part of the community) and open periodically during the day as a place of refuge and are designed in a family friendly way.  I currently attend in a building that is out in the middle of nowhere.  People scoff when I tell them how far I travel from my major metro area.  It seems like a reminder of how we are viewed...out there on the fringe.
•	Church buildings should be utilized in such a way that members of the community periodically come to our building (classes, seminars, etc)
•	People should sit on committees where their talents and abilities are best used to make these things happen (the secret to actually getting things done is to put someone in charge of an area where he/she has a God given talent).  For example, I am impressed that several other faiths have a parish nurse.
•	We have offerings that are of interest to our community members and infiltrate the community with information about those offerings:  child development, healthcare, career, genealogy, cooking, financial planning, various support groups, etc.  If we have a high quality offering in these areas, why wouldn&#039;t people be infiltrating our buildings and interacting with us?
•	Get basketball hoops outside the building.  As I have visited many of the most spiritual and renowned chapels in the USA and in Europe, I am struck with a sense of peace.  One of the elements I notice is no distraction from the spiritual nature of the environment.  What impact would a basketball court in the middle of the Cathedral of Notre Dame have on the feeling one gets there?
•	Dig into the scriptures at a much deeper level (as other faiths are).  What would it be like to have some teaching materials prepared by those who spend their lives studying the scriptures in their original language and the culture of the period?
•	Have church members offer to sponsor activities in their community on holidays, rather than all members isolating themselves at the chapel.  For example, my ward spends each 4th of July lighting their own fireworks at their chapel in the middle of nowhere.  Not a nonmember in sight.  Very insular.
•	Take the time one would normally spend cleaning the chapel (let the paid custodian handle this out of the vast resources of the church) and instead  go to the hospital and read to children dying of cancer.  We all live busy lives.  If we are going to serve, let&#039;s truly do it and do it in a meaningful way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Differentiate between missionary work inside the church and outside:<br />
For missionary work inside the church, research shows that 43% of LDS disaffiliates left due to unmet spiritual needs. Of former LDS surveyed, 58% switched to other faiths or practices (mostly Christian). Of those with no current religious preference, 36% continued to pray often or daily.  Studies show that people leaving the church is rarely about being offended.  What can we learn from those who have left (either officially or unofficially)?</p>
<p>In the quest for new converts, there is no question that we need to get well beyond beating up members for not providing enough referrals and think more broadly as an institution.  The following would go along way toward helping the church to be seen as an important part of the community (outside of Utah) and open up many missionary opportunities.<br />
•	Community focused – affiliation with community agencies &#8211; We simply do not have the resources in many areas of the church that a social worker would have at his/her disposal.  Those resources are sorely needed at times.<br />
•	Open up all activities to the community (by advertising them and actively inviting community members)<br />
•	Utilize the experience of everyone.  Sometimes it seems that we give people callings where they are uncomfortable and or doing things they really don&#8217;t enjoy.  A ward is a wide spectrum of abilities and talents.  Allow peoples talents to shine, rather than giving people callings that are a really poor fit and drive them out of the church.  This would require that leadership really knows who people are, what they do, hobbies, gifts, etc.<br />
•	Church buildings should be centrally located to the community (as a visual reminder that we are here and an important part of the community) and open periodically during the day as a place of refuge and are designed in a family friendly way.  I currently attend in a building that is out in the middle of nowhere.  People scoff when I tell them how far I travel from my major metro area.  It seems like a reminder of how we are viewed&#8230;out there on the fringe.<br />
•	Church buildings should be utilized in such a way that members of the community periodically come to our building (classes, seminars, etc)<br />
•	People should sit on committees where their talents and abilities are best used to make these things happen (the secret to actually getting things done is to put someone in charge of an area where he/she has a God given talent).  For example, I am impressed that several other faiths have a parish nurse.<br />
•	We have offerings that are of interest to our community members and infiltrate the community with information about those offerings:  child development, healthcare, career, genealogy, cooking, financial planning, various support groups, etc.  If we have a high quality offering in these areas, why wouldn&#8217;t people be infiltrating our buildings and interacting with us?<br />
•	Get basketball hoops outside the building.  As I have visited many of the most spiritual and renowned chapels in the USA and in Europe, I am struck with a sense of peace.  One of the elements I notice is no distraction from the spiritual nature of the environment.  What impact would a basketball court in the middle of the Cathedral of Notre Dame have on the feeling one gets there?<br />
•	Dig into the scriptures at a much deeper level (as other faiths are).  What would it be like to have some teaching materials prepared by those who spend their lives studying the scriptures in their original language and the culture of the period?<br />
•	Have church members offer to sponsor activities in their community on holidays, rather than all members isolating themselves at the chapel.  For example, my ward spends each 4th of July lighting their own fireworks at their chapel in the middle of nowhere.  Not a nonmember in sight.  Very insular.<br />
•	Take the time one would normally spend cleaning the chapel (let the paid custodian handle this out of the vast resources of the church) and instead  go to the hospital and read to children dying of cancer.  We all live busy lives.  If we are going to serve, let&#8217;s truly do it and do it in a meaningful way.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Just for Quix</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/06/virtual-co-ed-rsph-missionary-work-lesson-12/#comment-22253</link>
		<dc:creator>Just for Quix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 00:54:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=585#comment-22253</guid>
		<description>Missional nuance to prevail more than proselytizing/salesmanship intent. (For those readers unaware of the term &quot;missional&quot; in its &#039;Christian-ese&#039; context, do a search under &quot;missional Christianity&quot; or &quot;emerging church.&quot;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Missional nuance to prevail more than proselytizing/salesmanship intent. (For those readers unaware of the term &#8220;missional&#8221; in its &#8216;Christian-ese&#8217; context, do a search under &#8220;missional Christianity&#8221; or &#8220;emerging church.&#8221;)</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ryan</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/06/virtual-co-ed-rsph-missionary-work-lesson-12/#comment-22249</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 23:54:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=585#comment-22249</guid>
		<description>Truer discipleship.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Truer discipleship.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Ann</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/06/virtual-co-ed-rsph-missionary-work-lesson-12/#comment-22245</link>
		<dc:creator>Ann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 22:59:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=585#comment-22245</guid>
		<description>I want that link to inside your head.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I want that link to inside your head.</p>
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