The post was a self-reflective question. I wanted to open up my self-reflection and share it with others who care to ponder and give input.

Thanks everyone!

I will always choose the coffee bean in favor of aspartame, phenylalanine, saccharin, etc..

Well, I was just considering the health ramifications, (of which there are multiple schools of thought). But I think there are other valid variables, besides “health,” to consider. Variables which impact hte cost/benefit conclusion.

We don’t eat and drink for purely health reasons. We eat and drink for social reasons as well, and while I’m sure to be poo-poo’d by everyone here, there are some real social benefits to coffee, tea, and alcohol. There is a reason certain early LDS leaders “hearts were made merry by the fruit of the vine.” Did it not create a role in fostering bonhomie amongst the early Saints. And I’ve heard more than one reputable Mormon Historian speculate that both the Kirtland “pentacostal” experience, and the all-night Nauvoo Temple endowment parties prior to setting off across the plains, were aided and abetted by “the fruit of the vine.”

Can’t argue with that.

I agree that the term “conspiring men” doesn’t apply to every addiction peddler, but I have no qualms about saying it applies to the addiction industries – and I think it applies to FAR more people in FAR more industries than are specified in the WofW and than most members realize. It’s another aspect of “govern themselves”, imo.

I see what you are saying, but it seems a lot of drinks and/or foods besides Coffee, Tea, Tobacco, and Alcohol could fall under the “conspiring men” label.

Also, I feel uncomfortable with the “conspiring men… for greed” label anyway. Many LDS no doubt work for large conglomerates that have a hand in these industries (and other industries like gambling). I don’t consider Howard Schultz and the rest of the Starbucks brass “conspiring men,” but business men and women providing a product, a service, and careers for people… for a profit, not for greed. They are also big players when it comes to humanitarian work and philanthropy. In some respects, they are a model company.

Finally, too many people accuse church leaders of being “conspiring men”. Seems the label depends on your point of view.

AMEN!!

Apparently, you missed my point. I wasn’t arguing the fullfillment of the Law with Jesus. I was talking about obedience to the Law. Jews obey the dietary laws because God asked them too, not because of any health reasons. Just as we Latter-day Saints, do. We do it because we beleive God wants us to. There is no community/tribe or whatever you want to call it standard. It is, in our view the Lord’s standard. I know you know that.

anyway, what is the kick that you and a few others are getting into with community and/or tribe. I know you are part of another Church but the fact is, the LDS community has been created because the gospel of Jesus Christ having been restored in its fullness to the earth. Not the other way around.

while there many be some traditions of men present in the church community, it is the gospel and The Savior that governs it.

BTW, mugicha (dried wheat tea for those reading) is nasty stuff. Ash tray in a cup. If you like it, shouldn’t be too hard to steer you into pleasure even for a proper (and decaffeinated, if it’s your thing) bitter drink.

For me, just like the law of Moses, it is ONLY a question of obedience. Any other reason or benefit we receive is a blessing for that obedience.

The “correct principle” is avoidance of addictive substances that conspiring men promote simply out of greed. Those are pretty much the only things that come up in the temple recommend and baptism interviews – not meat or grain or exercise or sleep or anything else. Those things are left up to us to “govern ourselves”.

I really think if more people realized that it would cause a little needed understanding on this issue – even if they still disagreed about the inclusion of tea. Frankly, however, enough teas are allowed around the world (like wheat tea in Japan) that even that could be grouped in the “govern themselves” category.

I won’t argue the “Health” issue. To me, it is fairly cut and dry. Though drinking coffee may have some minor health benefits, from a pure cost/benefit analysis we’d be way better off not drinking coffee.

“Obedience” is a thorny issue for me, I’ll admit. I have many concerns:

1.) I’m a firm believer that the “teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves” model is more effective at teaching us the underlying eternal principle than the “strict obedience” model.

2.) Obedience to specific things creates loopholes whereby people essentially commit the same infraction, without the guilt. It creats a false sense of “all is well in Zion.” For example, what principle is learned by those who abstain from coffee, but drink 88 ounces of Diet Coke or Monster every day? All one has demonstrated is an ability to obey the letter of the law, to find the loophole. So you take your caffeine cold and bubbly instead of hot with cream and sugar. Go ahead and compare the caffeine content between Diet Code and Coffee, but if you do, you are simply proving, not refuting, my point.

3.) Obedience creates the strong temptation for pharasaical judgement of those who don’t comply, or comply differently than the orthodox party line. I saw Brother Valoel at Starbucks! I saw Brother Thurston in line for an R-rated movie! I saw Sister Jones wearing a two-piece bikini! There is a reason the Pharasees and Saducees could not see the obvious truth in front of them — they were so blinded by their rules, their degrees, their clothing, their symbols and ceremonies. We make the same mistake ALL the time.

4.) Following a rule as a demonstration of one’s fidelity to an institution or person feels too much like idolatry. It esteems status and standing in the institution above personal conscience and integrity. And it creates those annoying little sayings like, “Are you going to let something as small as Coffee keep you out of Heaven?” Please.

So I have trouble with obedience to commandments when I see the hand of man, not the hand of God as I understand God. To me, the Word of Wisdom combines both elements of God/Divine and Man. The only way for it to make sense to me is to unpackage the two, and endeavor to follow the part I believe is Divine.

I see it as obedience to God by way of obedience to one’s faith community, one’s tribe. Other disciples of Christ and their tribes can be quite right by God, and quite healthy, if the New Testament is trustworthy, and not observe the WoW. However, one can’t be quite right by the LDS community and not be outwardly obedient to it. May not be reasonable. May not be logical nor consistent. May not always be scientifically healthful or causatively linked. And, undoubtedly, observance to it will continue to liberalize (or not) in ways that will exasperate those who enjoy consistency from “God.”

The WoW is a way to show one’s outward loyalty to one’s tribe, if one’s tribe is LDS. All faith tribes have their rules of conformity, of holiness, no matter how much individual liberty they do or don’t embrace. If one’s tribe one wants to be a part of is being an active, temple-going Mormon, then one, by obedience to the WoW, is placing one’s community identity over one’s individual needs, and that, it would seem to be, is always a great and appropriate way to serve God. The prescriptions and proscriptions to the LDS version of “belonging” and “obedience to God” by way of the WoW are just that. But they are more than just that.

It’s a rewarding pursuit to finding what tribe you most authentically belong to, and want to belong to, and then living authentically to that. It’s an enigmatic yet exciting pursuit to finding out what pleases God and what please one’s tribe. Somethimes they are the same. Sometimes not. And sometimes they intermingle.

Sure, we can justify at times with health. God could just as easily say “thou shalt stand on your head for 10 minutes a day, and blessing will abound to you.” There is actually something, in a spiritual sense, to the Word of Wisdom that trancends mere health benefits. For those of us old farts that remember the Karate Kid movie, Mr. Miagi (sp?) made his student do stupid menial tasks around the house. They were indeed stupid and menial. There was however an unseen (to the student at the time) side benefit that was needed for his teacher to bring him to the next level of actual training in Karate. He had to do the stupid stuff in order to be ready for the important stuff.

This could very well be mixed into WoW practice. Religion, ritual and faith do not always make sense in the concrete sense. They still work though.