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	<title>Comments on: Spiritual or Just Religious?</title>
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		<title>By: The Role of the Church in the Pursuit of Righteousness: Why It Works for Some and Not for Others at Mormon Matters</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/29/spiritual-or-religious/#comment-57633</link>
		<dc:creator>The Role of the Church in the Pursuit of Righteousness: Why It Works for Some and Not for Others at Mormon Matters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Feb 2009 17:19:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=562#comment-57633</guid>
		<description>[...] 2) Hawkgrrrl&#8217;s &#8220;Spiritual or Just Religious&#8220; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 2) Hawkgrrrl&#8217;s &#8220;Spiritual or Just Religious&#8220; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: hawkgrrrl</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/29/spiritual-or-religious/#comment-26457</link>
		<dc:creator>hawkgrrrl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jul 2008 17:39:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=562#comment-26457</guid>
		<description>Deedee:  &quot;One day, one of them turned to me and told me that I was more Christian than any other person she’d met.&quot;

That brings up a thought - Jesus didn&#039;t really go to church or even found a &quot;church&quot; in the conventional sense at that point, at least not based on the written record.  The apostles organized on his behalf I suppose, but the record is nebulous about how Christ-contemporary Saints gathered to worship.  It seemed a lot more casual, like in the earliest days in the restoration.  People coming together in someone&#039;s house, having a meal, and talking about things of God.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Deedee:  &#8220;One day, one of them turned to me and told me that I was more Christian than any other person she’d met.&#8221;</p>
<p>That brings up a thought &#8211; Jesus didn&#8217;t really go to church or even found a &#8220;church&#8221; in the conventional sense at that point, at least not based on the written record.  The apostles organized on his behalf I suppose, but the record is nebulous about how Christ-contemporary Saints gathered to worship.  It seemed a lot more casual, like in the earliest days in the restoration.  People coming together in someone&#8217;s house, having a meal, and talking about things of God.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Deedee</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/29/spiritual-or-religious/#comment-26298</link>
		<dc:creator>Deedee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jul 2008 19:38:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=562#comment-26298</guid>
		<description>Though I am no longer a member of any church at this point, I do consider myself to be spiritual. I, even when attending church every time the doors were open, didn&#039;t call myself religious.  I hope that I don&#039;t sound offensive when I say this, but being religious, to me, implies that someone is more dogmatic about rituals than a true relationship with the Savior. Even Jesus had a problem with those who were religious. I do have to agree that spirituality can be (and in my opinion is) pretty focused on feelings/emotions; however, it&#039;s those feelings/emotions that can lead one to have more Christ-like behavior. Sometimes being religious can tie a persons hand because something/someone doesn&#039;t fit in with the church to which he/she belongs. To me, being Christian is more a state of what Jesus does in someone&#039;s life/heart/spirit. The outward evidence always shows what&#039;s happening on the inside.

example:  While I was attending a Christian church, I became friends with a couple of women who are self proclaimed witches. I do know that our belief systems were on opposite ends of the spectrum. One day, one of them turned to me and told me that I was more Christian than any other person she&#039;d met.  I was just being myself. Not showing disdain for her belief. NOT showing disdain for her. She didn&#039;t change her ways, but who know what may happen in the future. All I know is this, seeds were planted that day because I was not being religious towards her.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Though I am no longer a member of any church at this point, I do consider myself to be spiritual. I, even when attending church every time the doors were open, didn&#8217;t call myself religious.  I hope that I don&#8217;t sound offensive when I say this, but being religious, to me, implies that someone is more dogmatic about rituals than a true relationship with the Savior. Even Jesus had a problem with those who were religious. I do have to agree that spirituality can be (and in my opinion is) pretty focused on feelings/emotions; however, it&#8217;s those feelings/emotions that can lead one to have more Christ-like behavior. Sometimes being religious can tie a persons hand because something/someone doesn&#8217;t fit in with the church to which he/she belongs. To me, being Christian is more a state of what Jesus does in someone&#8217;s life/heart/spirit. The outward evidence always shows what&#8217;s happening on the inside.</p>
<p>example:  While I was attending a Christian church, I became friends with a couple of women who are self proclaimed witches. I do know that our belief systems were on opposite ends of the spectrum. One day, one of them turned to me and told me that I was more Christian than any other person she&#8217;d met.  I was just being myself. Not showing disdain for her belief. NOT showing disdain for her. She didn&#8217;t change her ways, but who know what may happen in the future. All I know is this, seeds were planted that day because I was not being religious towards her.</p>
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		<title>By: JustforQuix</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/29/spiritual-or-religious/#comment-26291</link>
		<dc:creator>JustforQuix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jul 2008 19:24:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=562#comment-26291</guid>
		<description>I also think it helpful to nuance &quot;righteousness.&quot; Paul did something revolutionary for his time, he defined Christ-followers by the term: &quot;believers&quot; -- people who are defined by their faith and belief, not primarily by their ways of practicing. Therefore, there is the matter of being justified in holiness before one&#039;s faith community by exactness and obedience, which was the old way, the Law. This is not righteousness that saves. There is also the matter that within holiness there are &quot;doubtful disputations&quot; and can lead to unrighteous judgment (Romans 14). 

The only righteousness of ultimate salvation is to to be declared righteous and unseparated before God. This righteousness (justification) only comes by faith in God through Jesus Christ. (Romans 3) Obedience does not &lt;i&gt;make&lt;/i&gt; us righteous, but it is a holy, righteous and genuine response coming from our faith and gratitude for the mercy, grace and righteousness of Jesus Christ offered in exchange for our sinfulness and separation. Religious observance, obedience and exactness to the Law that is performed as a course to justification is not righteousness; nevertheless it is not sin as it teaches us the ways of God, the avoidance of sin, and can lead us to faith (Romans 7). The righteousness of the law becomes revealed and fulfilled in those who don&#039;t walk after the manner of religiosity and externality, but after the guidance of the Spiritual (Romans 8). 

Christian religion -- the way, the path, the commandments, the law, the church, the community -- is fulfilled, made alive, vibrant and effective in faith and (capital-S) Spirituality. That doesn&#039;t make all religious exercise &quot;pure&quot; or &quot;true&quot;. (James is helpful in illuminating what action defines pure religion, though it still leaves a lot of responsibility on us to seek the Spirit in discerning pure religion from the doubtful and disputed.) A fulfilled law and righteousness by faith is not an excuse to sin (Romans 6, 13) nor can we avoid the call to community with our fellow believers (Romans 15). Like others have cautioned, to remove the symbiotic relationship that the Spirit has with pure religion is to take the capital-S out of spirituality, making it dead.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also think it helpful to nuance &#8220;righteousness.&#8221; Paul did something revolutionary for his time, he defined Christ-followers by the term: &#8220;believers&#8221; &#8212; people who are defined by their faith and belief, not primarily by their ways of practicing. Therefore, there is the matter of being justified in holiness before one&#8217;s faith community by exactness and obedience, which was the old way, the Law. This is not righteousness that saves. There is also the matter that within holiness there are &#8220;doubtful disputations&#8221; and can lead to unrighteous judgment (Romans 14). </p>
<p>The only righteousness of ultimate salvation is to to be declared righteous and unseparated before God. This righteousness (justification) only comes by faith in God through Jesus Christ. (Romans 3) Obedience does not <i>make</i> us righteous, but it is a holy, righteous and genuine response coming from our faith and gratitude for the mercy, grace and righteousness of Jesus Christ offered in exchange for our sinfulness and separation. Religious observance, obedience and exactness to the Law that is performed as a course to justification is not righteousness; nevertheless it is not sin as it teaches us the ways of God, the avoidance of sin, and can lead us to faith (Romans 7). The righteousness of the law becomes revealed and fulfilled in those who don&#8217;t walk after the manner of religiosity and externality, but after the guidance of the Spiritual (Romans 8). </p>
<p>Christian religion &#8212; the way, the path, the commandments, the law, the church, the community &#8212; is fulfilled, made alive, vibrant and effective in faith and (capital-S) Spirituality. That doesn&#8217;t make all religious exercise &#8220;pure&#8221; or &#8220;true&#8221;. (James is helpful in illuminating what action defines pure religion, though it still leaves a lot of responsibility on us to seek the Spirit in discerning pure religion from the doubtful and disputed.) A fulfilled law and righteousness by faith is not an excuse to sin (Romans 6, 13) nor can we avoid the call to community with our fellow believers (Romans 15). Like others have cautioned, to remove the symbiotic relationship that the Spirit has with pure religion is to take the capital-S out of spirituality, making it dead.</p>
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		<title>By: Hawkgrrrl</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/29/spiritual-or-religious/#comment-26290</link>
		<dc:creator>Hawkgrrrl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jul 2008 19:17:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=562#comment-26290</guid>
		<description>Well said, Clay.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well said, Clay.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/29/spiritual-or-religious/#comment-26280</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jul 2008 18:12:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=562#comment-26280</guid>
		<description>I agree with that, Clay - as long as we define &quot;spirituality&quot; only in positive terms.  I&#039;m just saying that &quot;spirituality&quot; is a modern term and too easily can become focused on feelings or emotions only.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with that, Clay &#8211; as long as we define &#8220;spirituality&#8221; only in positive terms.  I&#8217;m just saying that &#8220;spirituality&#8221; is a modern term and too easily can become focused on feelings or emotions only.</p>
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		<title>By: Clay Whipkey</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/29/spiritual-or-religious/#comment-26279</link>
		<dc:creator>Clay Whipkey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jul 2008 18:08:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=562#comment-26279</guid>
		<description>I think the distinction Hawk is making the post is that &quot;religion&quot; is the practical application of &quot;spirituality&quot;, but it is still possible to appear to be doing religion correctly while lacking/neglecting the spirituality aspect.  If we start marginalizing spirituality as just feelings and that the actions are what really matter, we are dipping our toes in Pharasaical waters.

I think that being religious in the sense of the original post is possible to do in a hollow non-spiritual way, but I believe the real definition of spirituality is that if you are connected with God&#039;s spirit you will be naturally moved to action, thus it can&#039;t be separated from &quot;righteousness&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the distinction Hawk is making the post is that &#8220;religion&#8221; is the practical application of &#8220;spirituality&#8221;, but it is still possible to appear to be doing religion correctly while lacking/neglecting the spirituality aspect.  If we start marginalizing spirituality as just feelings and that the actions are what really matter, we are dipping our toes in Pharasaical waters.</p>
<p>I think that being religious in the sense of the original post is possible to do in a hollow non-spiritual way, but I believe the real definition of spirituality is that if you are connected with God&#8217;s spirit you will be naturally moved to action, thus it can&#8217;t be separated from &#8220;righteousness&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/29/spiritual-or-religious/#comment-26172</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jul 2008 04:07:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=562#comment-26172</guid>
		<description>&quot;Conversion occurs when one moves from feeling to following.&quot;  

Then I think we agree; we&#039;re just saying it differently.  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Conversion occurs when one moves from feeling to following.&#8221;  </p>
<p>Then I think we agree; we&#8217;re just saying it differently.  <img src='http://mormonmatters.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Howard</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/29/spiritual-or-religious/#comment-26170</link>
		<dc:creator>Howard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jul 2008 04:03:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=562#comment-26170</guid>
		<description>Ray,
Spiritual death is separation from God.  So, spiritual (life) is being with or connected to God.  This requires action; one must both feel and follow the Spirit.  Conversion takes occurs when one moves from feeling to following.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ray,<br />
Spiritual death is separation from God.  So, spiritual (life) is being with or connected to God.  This requires action; one must both feel and follow the Spirit.  Conversion takes occurs when one moves from feeling to following.</p>
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		<title>By: Russell Stevenson</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/29/spiritual-or-religious/#comment-26165</link>
		<dc:creator>Russell Stevenson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jul 2008 03:20:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=562#comment-26165</guid>
		<description>Interestingly, during one of my many conversations with fellow grad. students about Mormonism, he was surprised that I was even calling Mormonism an &quot;ism&quot; by the time we were through.  &quot;It sounds more like spirituality to me.&quot;  

I must say though given some of our sacred ordinances, the term &quot;religion&quot; should be used with a fair dose of trepidation.  Frankly, I have engaged Protestant Christianity, Buddhism, and even Islam...and I find Mormonism to be the most flexible (a faith must have a structure to be truly called flexible...otherwise, it&#039;s just this nebulous essence of ideas) and more conducive to intellectual thought than any other religion.  Most religious traditions disparage that itching feeling of incompleteness that continuing revelation implies.  As one scholar noted on anti-intellectualism in the LDS faith, early Latter Day Saints did not really conceive of their being &quot;secular&quot; knowledge...all was spiritual. 

Let&#039;s face it...Christ isn&#039;t just our Savior...he&#039;s our teacher as well...and Joseph Smith introduced us to a Christ who proposes to save us, in part, by taking a walk with us through the woods of our own ignorance...doing his best to light the way provided that we stay loyal to him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interestingly, during one of my many conversations with fellow grad. students about Mormonism, he was surprised that I was even calling Mormonism an &#8220;ism&#8221; by the time we were through.  &#8220;It sounds more like spirituality to me.&#8221;  </p>
<p>I must say though given some of our sacred ordinances, the term &#8220;religion&#8221; should be used with a fair dose of trepidation.  Frankly, I have engaged Protestant Christianity, Buddhism, and even Islam&#8230;and I find Mormonism to be the most flexible (a faith must have a structure to be truly called flexible&#8230;otherwise, it&#8217;s just this nebulous essence of ideas) and more conducive to intellectual thought than any other religion.  Most religious traditions disparage that itching feeling of incompleteness that continuing revelation implies.  As one scholar noted on anti-intellectualism in the LDS faith, early Latter Day Saints did not really conceive of their being &#8220;secular&#8221; knowledge&#8230;all was spiritual. </p>
<p>Let&#8217;s face it&#8230;Christ isn&#8217;t just our Savior&#8230;he&#8217;s our teacher as well&#8230;and Joseph Smith introduced us to a Christ who proposes to save us, in part, by taking a walk with us through the woods of our own ignorance&#8230;doing his best to light the way provided that we stay loyal to him.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/29/spiritual-or-religious/#comment-26164</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jul 2008 03:05:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=562#comment-26164</guid>
		<description>Howard: Again, since &quot;spirituality&quot; does not appear in own canon, all we can take from it **in and of itself** is being in tune with spirit(s) - being &quot;spiritual&quot;.  That does not intuitively have anything to do with actions, once you divorce interpretations of the word that have been added over time.  The word itself has nothing to do with &quot;conversion&quot;.  

Let me give a specific example: 

We teach that there are various &quot;spirits&quot; a person can decide to follow.  I met a man on my mission who was very much &quot;in tune with spirits&quot;.  Strictly speaking, he was a very &quot;spiritual&quot; man.  He also was one of the scariest, most evil people I have ever met in my life.  

Likewise, one can feel &quot;The Spirit&quot; and not act on it - not make any changes whatsoever in practical matters.  &quot;Faith&quot; also is interpreted by some (quite a few, actually) as something you feel, divorced completely from actions.  &quot;Conversion&quot;, otoh, requires a change of action.  Therefore, &quot;spirituality&quot; may connote action to some, but it only denotes feeling - being in touch with some spirit.  

Finally, &quot;righteous&quot; means &quot;being right&quot; - in this case, being right with God.  It is the actual fulfillment of &quot;good spirituality&quot; - proper spirituality in action.  The Beatitudes don&#039;t say, &quot;Blessed are the spiritual;&quot; they say, &quot;Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness.&quot;  There is a lesson in that distinction, imo.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Howard: Again, since &#8220;spirituality&#8221; does not appear in own canon, all we can take from it **in and of itself** is being in tune with spirit(s) &#8211; being &#8220;spiritual&#8221;.  That does not intuitively have anything to do with actions, once you divorce interpretations of the word that have been added over time.  The word itself has nothing to do with &#8220;conversion&#8221;.  </p>
<p>Let me give a specific example: </p>
<p>We teach that there are various &#8220;spirits&#8221; a person can decide to follow.  I met a man on my mission who was very much &#8220;in tune with spirits&#8221;.  Strictly speaking, he was a very &#8220;spiritual&#8221; man.  He also was one of the scariest, most evil people I have ever met in my life.  </p>
<p>Likewise, one can feel &#8220;The Spirit&#8221; and not act on it &#8211; not make any changes whatsoever in practical matters.  &#8220;Faith&#8221; also is interpreted by some (quite a few, actually) as something you feel, divorced completely from actions.  &#8220;Conversion&#8221;, otoh, requires a change of action.  Therefore, &#8220;spirituality&#8221; may connote action to some, but it only denotes feeling &#8211; being in touch with some spirit.  </p>
<p>Finally, &#8220;righteous&#8221; means &#8220;being right&#8221; &#8211; in this case, being right with God.  It is the actual fulfillment of &#8220;good spirituality&#8221; &#8211; proper spirituality in action.  The Beatitudes don&#8217;t say, &#8220;Blessed are the spiritual;&#8221; they say, &#8220;Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness.&#8221;  There is a lesson in that distinction, imo.</p>
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		<title>By: Howard</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/29/spiritual-or-religious/#comment-26162</link>
		<dc:creator>Howard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jul 2008 02:36:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=562#comment-26162</guid>
		<description>One cannot become any more righteous that being fully repentant.  But one’s spirituality is capable of growing and growing until you become one with God.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One cannot become any more righteous that being fully repentant.  But one’s spirituality is capable of growing and growing until you become one with God.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Howard</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/29/spiritual-or-religious/#comment-26158</link>
		<dc:creator>Howard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jul 2008 02:26:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=562#comment-26158</guid>
		<description>Ray,
Please reconcile your statement; “spirituality denotes feelings only (the kind of “faith” that often means nothing to true conversion of the soul)” with BoM conversions via. Moroni’s challenge and the power of the Holy Ghost.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ray,<br />
Please reconcile your statement; “spirituality denotes feelings only (the kind of “faith” that often means nothing to true conversion of the soul)” with BoM conversions via. Moroni’s challenge and the power of the Holy Ghost.</p>
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		<title>By: Spektator</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/29/spiritual-or-religious/#comment-26144</link>
		<dc:creator>Spektator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jul 2008 01:24:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=562#comment-26144</guid>
		<description>I consider the terms &#039;spiritual&#039; and &#039;righteous&#039; as ways to express our desire for a &#039;relationship&#039; with our Master. Our spiritual quest is to know God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent. Religion, such as restored Mormonism, was intended to help us learn how to approach God, to &#039;come unto Him.&#039; As soon as a religion begins to be an end unto itself, it becomes an impediment to the development of this relationship with Christ. 

My wife once had a dream where she was on a bus that took her and the other passengers to the bottom of a great mountain. Once there, they had to put their hiking boots on and continue the journey up the mountain by foot. The church can only take us so far before be must walk on our own two feet by faith to reach our destination.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I consider the terms &#8216;spiritual&#8217; and &#8216;righteous&#8217; as ways to express our desire for a &#8216;relationship&#8217; with our Master. Our spiritual quest is to know God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent. Religion, such as restored Mormonism, was intended to help us learn how to approach God, to &#8216;come unto Him.&#8217; As soon as a religion begins to be an end unto itself, it becomes an impediment to the development of this relationship with Christ. </p>
<p>My wife once had a dream where she was on a bus that took her and the other passengers to the bottom of a great mountain. Once there, they had to put their hiking boots on and continue the journey up the mountain by foot. The church can only take us so far before be must walk on our own two feet by faith to reach our destination.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: DavidH</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/29/spiritual-or-religious/#comment-26139</link>
		<dc:creator>DavidH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jul 2008 00:58:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=562#comment-26139</guid>
		<description>I think a person can be &quot;spiritual&quot;, &quot;communal&quot; and &quot;righteous&quot; without belonging to an organized religion.  In fact, if James is right in his definition of &quot;religion&quot; in the New Testament, one can be even be &quot;religious&quot; without belonging to an organized religion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think a person can be &#8220;spiritual&#8221;, &#8220;communal&#8221; and &#8220;righteous&#8221; without belonging to an organized religion.  In fact, if James is right in his definition of &#8220;religion&#8221; in the New Testament, one can be even be &#8220;religious&#8221; without belonging to an organized religion.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/29/spiritual-or-religious/#comment-26134</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jul 2008 00:40:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=562#comment-26134</guid>
		<description>Just as an interesting tidbit: 

&quot;Spirituality&quot; is not recorded in our canon anywhere.  A person is described as **being** spiritual (someone &quot;is spiritual&quot; or people &quot;are spiritual&quot;) only twice in the entire canon - both instances by Paul.  

I find that fascinating.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just as an interesting tidbit: </p>
<p>&#8220;Spirituality&#8221; is not recorded in our canon anywhere.  A person is described as **being** spiritual (someone &#8220;is spiritual&#8221; or people &#8220;are spiritual&#8221;) only twice in the entire canon &#8211; both instances by Paul.  </p>
<p>I find that fascinating.</p>
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		<title>By: Arthur</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/29/spiritual-or-religious/#comment-26126</link>
		<dc:creator>Arthur</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 23:41:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=562#comment-26126</guid>
		<description>My spirituality requires religion.  You can say &quot;I love the feeling of going really fast,&quot; but you still need a car, train, bus, plane, whatever... and how to use it.  I guess I agree with #6, then, because I believe true communion with God requires righteous action.

Anyone who claims that their spirituality exists in a vacuum, apart from any other theological systems, is deluding themselves.  Our perception of God is based on what we see around us.  Even those who claim otherworldly revelation seem to acknowledge that God tended to speak to them according to their own language (Joseph Smith, Mohammed, Moses), and in a way they could understand, meaning God works through the constructs a person has built up over their lives.  Therefore I say find your spirituality through your religion, whatever it may be, and if it&#039;s not working for you, try a different one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My spirituality requires religion.  You can say &#8220;I love the feeling of going really fast,&#8221; but you still need a car, train, bus, plane, whatever&#8230; and how to use it.  I guess I agree with #6, then, because I believe true communion with God requires righteous action.</p>
<p>Anyone who claims that their spirituality exists in a vacuum, apart from any other theological systems, is deluding themselves.  Our perception of God is based on what we see around us.  Even those who claim otherworldly revelation seem to acknowledge that God tended to speak to them according to their own language (Joseph Smith, Mohammed, Moses), and in a way they could understand, meaning God works through the constructs a person has built up over their lives.  Therefore I say find your spirituality through your religion, whatever it may be, and if it&#8217;s not working for you, try a different one.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Maurice Martin</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/29/spiritual-or-religious/#comment-26123</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Maurice Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 23:33:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=562#comment-26123</guid>
		<description>&quot;Spirituality&quot; is a really fuzzy term. You can find the scriptures of major world religions in the spirituality sections of bookstores right alongside the musings of Madonna and Jane Fonda.

Religion usually refers more precisely to well established institutions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Spirituality&#8221; is a really fuzzy term. You can find the scriptures of major world religions in the spirituality sections of bookstores right alongside the musings of Madonna and Jane Fonda.</p>
<p>Religion usually refers more precisely to well established institutions.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/29/spiritual-or-religious/#comment-26117</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 22:59:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=562#comment-26117</guid>
		<description>I care more for &quot;righteousness&quot; than &quot;spirituality&quot; - since righteousness denotes action (the marriage of real faith with the fruits it produces) whereas spirituality denotes feelings only (the kind of &quot;faith&quot; that often means nothing to true conversion of the soul).  

Also, I don&#039;t believe we were created to be saved individually in isolation, so communal religion is a no-brainer to me.  (&quot;Where two or three are gathered in my name . . .&quot;)  I believe that anyone who gathers with others to worship believes that, as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I care more for &#8220;righteousness&#8221; than &#8220;spirituality&#8221; &#8211; since righteousness denotes action (the marriage of real faith with the fruits it produces) whereas spirituality denotes feelings only (the kind of &#8220;faith&#8221; that often means nothing to true conversion of the soul).  </p>
<p>Also, I don&#8217;t believe we were created to be saved individually in isolation, so communal religion is a no-brainer to me.  (&#8220;Where two or three are gathered in my name . . .&#8221;)  I believe that anyone who gathers with others to worship believes that, as well.</p>
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		<title>By: Valoel</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/29/spiritual-or-religious/#comment-26114</link>
		<dc:creator>Valoel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 22:49:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=562#comment-26114</guid>
		<description>I think spirituality is personal.  Religion is generally communal.

Science is the tool to explore nature.  Religion is the tool to explore the spiritual.  That&#039;s why talking spiritual with a science crowd results in all kinds of arguments about what can be proven or not.  Science is not the tool.  Religion is the tool for the job.

When someone says they are spiritual and not religious, I think they don&#039;t understand religion.  I don&#039;t blame them.  There are lots of bad examples of religion to give someone the conclusion that organized religion is all bad.  It&#039;s not.  It works really great for a lot of people, at whatever level those people are at in their faith.  Religion is the practice of spirituality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think spirituality is personal.  Religion is generally communal.</p>
<p>Science is the tool to explore nature.  Religion is the tool to explore the spiritual.  That&#8217;s why talking spiritual with a science crowd results in all kinds of arguments about what can be proven or not.  Science is not the tool.  Religion is the tool for the job.</p>
<p>When someone says they are spiritual and not religious, I think they don&#8217;t understand religion.  I don&#8217;t blame them.  There are lots of bad examples of religion to give someone the conclusion that organized religion is all bad.  It&#8217;s not.  It works really great for a lot of people, at whatever level those people are at in their faith.  Religion is the practice of spirituality.</p>
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		<title>By: DavidH</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/29/spiritual-or-religious/#comment-26111</link>
		<dc:creator>DavidH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 22:41:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=562#comment-26111</guid>
		<description>In my view, spirituality means our relationship (with or without organized religion) with the numinous, with God, and with our fellow beings, and even all of nature.  Religious spirituality, including LDS spirituality, to me, is a subset of spirituality, and means our relationship to God and His creations mediated primarily through a religion&#039;s teachings or its structure and rituals (including ordinances).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In my view, spirituality means our relationship (with or without organized religion) with the numinous, with God, and with our fellow beings, and even all of nature.  Religious spirituality, including LDS spirituality, to me, is a subset of spirituality, and means our relationship to God and His creations mediated primarily through a religion&#8217;s teachings or its structure and rituals (including ordinances).</p>
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		<title>By: Howard</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/29/spiritual-or-religious/#comment-26109</link>
		<dc:creator>Howard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 22:27:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=562#comment-26109</guid>
		<description>Mormonism is the most spiritual religion I have been exposed to.  But, there are narrow limits to the form of spirituality will be accepted or even tolerated.  It has been my experience that there are many spiritual paths but unless they are a part of your past you won&#039;t find broad acceptance for them as a member.  

Tobias Wolff: &quot;Perhaps the greatest problem with this word is the line it seems to imply between spirit and flesh...&quot;  This is not a problem for Mormons, they understand and accept the interface of spirit and flesh and they understand some of the great questions like; where we came from, why we are here and where we are going.  But, one of the big weaknesses is that many only know these answers intellectually, they haven&#039;t experienced gnosis or &quot;knowing&quot; them spiritually.

Another great spiritual strength is revelation.  

McConkie: 
&quot;As a people, we are in the habit of saying that we believe in latter-day revelation. We announce that the heavens have been opened, that God has spoken in our day, that angels have ministered to men, that there have been visions and revelations, and that no gift possessed by the ancients has been withheld.  

But usually, when we talk in this way, we are thinking of the examples of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, or Spencer W. Kimball. We are thinking of apostles and prophets. We are thinking of them and of the Church itself operating on the principle of revelation.  

But revelation is not restricted to the prophet of God on earth. The visions of eternity are not reserved for General Authorities. Revelation is something that should be received by every individual. For the Lord said in D&amp;C 1:35 “… I am no respecter of persons …” and every soul is just as precious to him as the souls of those who are called to positions of leadership. Because he operates on principles of eternal, universal law, any individual who obeys the law that entitles him to get revelation can know exactly what President Kimball knows, can speak with angels just as well as Joseph Smith spoke with them, and can be in tune with all things spiritual. 

Now I say that we are entitled to revelation. Every member of the Church is entitled to get revelation from the Holy Ghost; he is entitled to have angels visit; he is entitled to view the visions of eternity; and he is entitled to see God the same way that any prophet in reality has seen him.&quot;

When it comes to personal revelation of this magnitude, many (probably most?) do not actually believe it exists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mormonism is the most spiritual religion I have been exposed to.  But, there are narrow limits to the form of spirituality will be accepted or even tolerated.  It has been my experience that there are many spiritual paths but unless they are a part of your past you won&#8217;t find broad acceptance for them as a member.  </p>
<p>Tobias Wolff: &#8220;Perhaps the greatest problem with this word is the line it seems to imply between spirit and flesh&#8230;&#8221;  This is not a problem for Mormons, they understand and accept the interface of spirit and flesh and they understand some of the great questions like; where we came from, why we are here and where we are going.  But, one of the big weaknesses is that many only know these answers intellectually, they haven&#8217;t experienced gnosis or &#8220;knowing&#8221; them spiritually.</p>
<p>Another great spiritual strength is revelation.  </p>
<p>McConkie:<br />
&#8220;As a people, we are in the habit of saying that we believe in latter-day revelation. We announce that the heavens have been opened, that God has spoken in our day, that angels have ministered to men, that there have been visions and revelations, and that no gift possessed by the ancients has been withheld.  </p>
<p>But usually, when we talk in this way, we are thinking of the examples of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, or Spencer W. Kimball. We are thinking of apostles and prophets. We are thinking of them and of the Church itself operating on the principle of revelation.  </p>
<p>But revelation is not restricted to the prophet of God on earth. The visions of eternity are not reserved for General Authorities. Revelation is something that should be received by every individual. For the Lord said in D&amp;C 1:35 “… I am no respecter of persons …” and every soul is just as precious to him as the souls of those who are called to positions of leadership. Because he operates on principles of eternal, universal law, any individual who obeys the law that entitles him to get revelation can know exactly what President Kimball knows, can speak with angels just as well as Joseph Smith spoke with them, and can be in tune with all things spiritual. </p>
<p>Now I say that we are entitled to revelation. Every member of the Church is entitled to get revelation from the Holy Ghost; he is entitled to have angels visit; he is entitled to view the visions of eternity; and he is entitled to see God the same way that any prophet in reality has seen him.&#8221;</p>
<p>When it comes to personal revelation of this magnitude, many (probably most?) do not actually believe it exists.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Spector</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/29/spiritual-or-religious/#comment-26104</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Spector</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 22:09:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=562#comment-26104</guid>
		<description>There is spirituality and then there is spirituality!  Many people I have known used the phrase, &quot;I am a very spiritual person&quot; as a code phrase for not be committed to the practice of a religious faith. However, truly spiritual people who are earnestly strive to live a life pleasing to God, no matter what context that takes, have no need for such a declaration.

Following a religion solely because it is the family tradition generally yield a religious person from a practice standpoint, but not necessarily a spiritual one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is spirituality and then there is spirituality!  Many people I have known used the phrase, &#8220;I am a very spiritual person&#8221; as a code phrase for not be committed to the practice of a religious faith. However, truly spiritual people who are earnestly strive to live a life pleasing to God, no matter what context that takes, have no need for such a declaration.</p>
<p>Following a religion solely because it is the family tradition generally yield a religious person from a practice standpoint, but not necessarily a spiritual one.</p>
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		<title>By: JustforQuix</title>
		<link>http://mormonmatters.org/2008/07/29/spiritual-or-religious/#comment-26095</link>
		<dc:creator>JustforQuix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 21:18:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonmatters.org/?p=562#comment-26095</guid>
		<description>As I pursued spirituality it became a personal and too community-detached and intellectually weighted pursuit. Finding my heart more in my faith has involved seeking and embracing more about religion -- about people, humanity and community. Finding my need for and authentic identity within faith community has helped me see that I couldn&#039;t fully separate the two to feel fully human yet still personally immersed and connected with faith.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I pursued spirituality it became a personal and too community-detached and intellectually weighted pursuit. Finding my heart more in my faith has involved seeking and embracing more about religion &#8212; about people, humanity and community. Finding my need for and authentic identity within faith community has helped me see that I couldn&#8217;t fully separate the two to feel fully human yet still personally immersed and connected with faith.</p>
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