#55 Interesting perspective.

“What a pity it would be, if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken the influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually.” (JD 9:150)

if you end up as an exalted being, you’ll have to forgive billions of your spirit children through the Atonement of your firstborn spirit child.

Do we ever ask ourselves how absurd some of our atonement theories adopted from St Anselm sound. I am going to forgive my children by demanding another of my child suffer including being tortured and murdered. These theories come from a sacrificial mindset. Peter Abelard showed the absurdity of Anselm’s ideas hundreds of years ago and yet we still want to believe that God engages in a form of child abuse and is so incapable of forgiving us that one of his children must be tortured and killed to satisfy his blood lust.

I hope that if I end up God that I will simply forgive my children. I hope that when I send my own son to the vineyard they will choose to follow him and not kill him. Justice is not an offended God who needs to be appeased or some intelligences who demand fair play and rule over God, or some arbitrary universal laws that are based upon violence in retribution. Justice is simply you are what you are as Alma explains the law of restitution. If you are a jerk you will remain a jerk. The atonement doesnt appease an angry God or some law but gives us faith, faith to repent and change, which is the bringing about the bowls of mercy. We are the obstacles to our own forgiveness and change. We are the ones who demanded Christ die.

Or at least thats how I see it today

Even with just Biblical references, C.S. Lewis and other Christian thinkers were able to extract the principle of exaltation/deification. So we don’t even have to rely on extra-canonical stuff like the King Follet discourse to draw our minds to the possibilities of what goes on in the eternities.

There is so much left un-said in Genesis. It makes me wonder what was removed by scribes and record-keepers in the millennia between Moses and the compositors of the currently known oldest copies of the Old Testament.

Did Moses himself redact/summarize things? Did Moses write Genesis soley through revelation? Or did he have records handed down to him that he redacted, similar to Mormon? I don’t have the cite handy, but one of the modern prophets or apostles (I think it was Spencer Kimball) said that Moses had physical records handed to him from which he created the summary we know as Genesis.

There’s much cultural and verbal shorthand in Genesis. (What does it mean by “the earth was divided” when it describes the days of Peleg? Was that a political division, or were land masses physically divided via geographical movement or division of the plates of the earth’s crust? )

I think it safe to assume that Abraham’s knowledge of and closeness to Heavenly Father and Jehovah/Christ became equal to that of any other prophet, including Enoch, Noah, Melchizedek, Moses and subsequent O.T. prophets. He not only knew Jehovah face-to-face, I would think he also knew Heavenly Father face-to-face.

Hawkgrrrl: I think you’re saying that not only did Abraham believe that the Lord would resurrect Isaac, it’s possible that Isaac believed so too; and that it’s possible that both Abraham and Isaac knew in advance that the experience was to be a symbolic teaching exercise.

Another parallel is our (us spirit children who came to Earth to receive bodies) willingness to “die spiritually” by leaving the presence of Heavenly Father in the pre-mortal existence, (one of the definitions of spiritual death is to be outside of the presence of God) with faith that God would both resurrect us physically, and “resurrect” us back to spiritual life by bringing us back into his presence.

Another parallel is Adam’s apparent willingness to die (spiritually and physically) by partaking of the fruit, with faith that God and Christ would physically resurrect him and Eve, and spiritually resurrect them (bring them back into God’s presence.) Though Genesis and the Book of Moses don’t make it clear to me “how much did they know and when did they know it” in regards to Adam and Eve’s understanding of the overall plan.

This all takes my mind to the Atonement. It is necessary for us to comprehend the Atonement as much as possible (and eventually at some point in the future eternities to fully comprehend it) and forgive everyone who offends us on this earth; because if you end up as an exalted being, you’ll have to forgive billions of your spirit children through the Atonement of your firstborn spirit child.

“There seems to be many in the church who would even sacrifice their own children if they believed God told them to do it. Don’t take this the wrong way, but those people should be locked up. “

Mr. Bookslinger, For your children’s sake, I hope you don’t feel the need to become an exalted being anytime soon.:)

As a future exalted being himself, Abraham (and the rest of us who might aspire to grow up to be like Heavenly Father) neededed to learn what it is like to sacrifice one’s firstborn-in-the-spirit son and only-begotten-in-the-flesh son.

As far as I can make out, (as JS said that we become exalted in the same manner that all exalted beings before us) all exalted beings will need to sacrifice their firstborn-in-the-spirit (who will also be their only-begotten-in-the-flesh), in order to bring about the immortality and eternal life of their spirit children.

I also recall a scripture that the Savior said he learned everything he knows or did from his Father. Question: How did Christ know how to take upon himself and make an expiation for the sins of the world? Answer: (from that scripture I can’t seem to cite) He learned it from his Father.

So another take on the story is: God was teaching Abraham an important facet of being an exalted being.

Very good point and no, not at all. I was making the point that we cant take all that is written as absolute and that it came from God. We have to each use our own intellect and the spirit to discern between what is from God and what is from men. I mean that’s why God gave it to us right?

Do you follow certain beliefs because men told you, or wrote in a book that God taught “this”? Whether it was written a couple thousand years ago or yesterday I would still question any practice or belief that went against what I felt was right or not.

The OT needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Prophets then and now can and have made mistakes and have written scriptures to appease their own conscience. Honestly just read some of the horrible things that are attributed to God in the OT and tell me that he is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

I think that even when I was fully absorbed in the faith (see Ray, I didn’t say TBM)I believed that about OT writings. Good point, thanks for your perspective.

will do.

Doug,

It seems to me that the problem comes not from believing God is the same in the OT and NT but believing that the ancients understood God’s will to the same degree. I have a strong belief that part of the reason Christ had to come was to let us all know once and for all what God is truly like (If you have seen me…) We see through a glass darkly and I believe that how we relate to the divine is greatly influenced by our own culture and views. Maybe Joshua really felt the Lord wanted him to massacre men women and children but that does not mean, even if he claims it, that God actually did so. The best witness we have of who God is and what he is like is in Christ himself.

Remember to embrace the spirit of love and sharing in our words. Thanks everyone!

My comments were based on some of the posts I read here rather than the actual story of Abraham and Isaac. Although I still find it disturbing, at least as you point out, God never expected him to go through with it. That’s not the case in many other Old Testament stories and one particular instance in the Book of Mormon. As I said, we already had a long debate early this year on God commanding killing. I would invite you to go back and read the threads “God’s Hit List in the Book of Mormon” or the one on whether you would be willing to kill if God commanded it.

There seems to be many in the church who would even sacrifice their own children if they believed God told them to do it. Don’t take this the wrong way, but those people should be locked up.

“Sounds to me like you don’t think Jehovah is Jesus Christ”

I don’t know how to respond to this one. Several years ago I would have bet my life on Him being the God of the Old Testament. Since coming to realize just how many of our doctrines in the church are man-made, I really don’t know. He certainly could be, and that would fit in with nearly every Christian religion out there, as believing in the Trinity would still make Him the God of the O.T. Joshua may actually be on to something with his comment…

It sounds to me like people just want to be stuck on the killing thing out of stubbornness (or ignorance). Yes, the old, traditional, at-face-value, and wrong interpretation of Abraham and Isaac’s event on a mountaintop could inspire blood-thirstiness in already demented minds (but so could anything misinterpreted)… But when a non-demented mind sees that Abraham was never meant to kill Isaac, and that it was an event of ritual instruction of Isaac in the similitudes of Christ, then I think that view shatters all the ph33r and scariness (and confusion over the story) in the world. YMMV

Sounds to me like you don’t think Jehovah is Jesus Christ. YHVH is definitely the God of the Old Testament (my Lord my God), and Jesus Christ is definitely the Lord of the New Testament (my Lord my God also taught us then about our Father our God).

To answer your question, I do not see our Lord our God commanding anyone’s death in this story. I see an event of ritual instruction, even if there is some fronting and suspense involved.

When people lose sight of the similitudes, they lose sight of most of the meaning that can be derived from Scripture.

“But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.” — II Peter 3:8

“For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.” — Psalm 90:4

If you really believe that Jesus Christ is the God of the Old Testament, can you honestly see him commanding anyone’s death?

nope, I cant. Which is one of the reasons Jesus had to come and say, you have heard it said…. but that wasnt me and let me tell you what I want.

“Besides, if Isaac grew up not knowing Ishmael, as far as Isaac is concerned, he is the only begotten of his father”

I guess if you want to look hard enough, you can find parallels in most anything. For me, the story of Abraham and Isaac is not only disturbing, but downright scary when I realize how many people today think that God would ever command such a thing. With that belief, Mountain Meadows type events become possible, Danites find strength and conviction in their cause, Governors are shot in the back while sitting at their desks, and men justify the most unbelievable evils imaginable.

Sorry Mr. Stay, but the God I worship is smart enough to know what man would do with the kind of example the story of Abraham provides and therefore wouldn’t do it. If you really believe that Jesus Christ is the God of the Old Testament, can you honestly see him commanding anyone’s death? I just can’t go there, but I realize I’m quite alone in that belief in the LDS church. I don’t present this for further comment as some of us have already been down this road in a previous discussion. The arguments will be the same, in the end I’ll find myself amazed at the blind ignorance of so many posters. And then I’ll get scared…

The problem arises when we base our moral code on such myths. Certainly the earth has seen enough of ‘God’ sanctioned murder. Such absolute obedience, even unto the taking of life, should have no part in a modern culture.