“It seems whenever someone leaves the church and begins speaking out against some of its teachings the members take it as a personal attack.”

Joe, People, former members and never members are free to express their opinions about our doctrines, what we teach, how we treat others, etc. What people like me take as a personal attack is where we are told we are wrong, going to hell or where our beliefs are misrepresented. In fact, it is really the 3rd point that I have an issue with. I have had many people insist that LDS teach a certain thing when we do not.

“I just attended an LDS funeral of a family friend and you can’t imagine how hard it was for me.”

I have always thought that LDS funerals were the most uplifting and positive events associated with death. I wish all funerals could be so positive. If you really understand our doctrine well, I don’t know what you would be surprised at, those quotes were pretty standard. You know our doctrine of eternal marriage, I would hope that any LDS couple not married in the Temple would work toward receiving that blessing.

“The bible teaches that its not about what “you” do, but what Christ “already did”. None of us are worthy, nor will we ever be. That is what the *Gift of Grace* is all about.”

You will get no argument on these points from any of us. We cannot “work our way to heaven.” However, the Savior also said, “If you love me, keep my commandments.” I, like most Latter-day Saints, am trying to do that so I may live with Him again because no unclean thing can enter the presence of God. We must receive forgiven for our sins because we commit them on a regular basis.

Again, your Ephesian quote, which is a great one, is still a proof text to your point. The scriptures do not represent that viewpoint when viewed in their totality. of course, that is my opinion.

1. The church has been welcoming of all members, past and present back to fellowship since Joseph Smith organized the Church. If you examine General Conference talk, you will read a common theme of welcoming back throughout our history.

Second, if I base your attitude to the members on some of the things you’ve written here, a little introspection is in order. Not just about how you think the members view you, but on how you view them. Just some friendly advice.

By this I do not denigrate those who have thought it. Who hasn’t? I know I have sometimes thought about it.

What happens for me though is after thinking about it for awhile I realize that I am asking the wrong question.

The real question is: “Is it true?”

The answer to that question establishes a course of action in response.

The question: “What if it isn’t true?” only generates meaningless angst and speculation.

“He said members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are ready to welcome “the less active, the offended, the critical, the transgressor” into fellowship.” Do you think this might indicate there is a problem with Mormons being overly critical of people that have left? I do.”

I think president Monson said “we welcome them,” not we crucify them. I really don’t see how that indicates a problem being overly critical. Can you explain that to me?

Andrew, #91, “Particularly with the “BTW…” statement you could certainly be taken as someone attempting to “make a counterpoint” rather than seeking to truly understand.”

I was simply stating a fact that that is an oft used phrase by that group. I think I understand where Joe is coming from completely. I wasn’t saying he, personally, is an Anti-mormon, but I was addressing that statement.

I also am appalled that someone would use “hateful looks” if someone else does not take the sacrament. I have never seen such a reaction by anyone, ever, in all my years in the Church, so I have a hard time envisioning it. That is true particularly in wards or branches where someone is not known – is a visitor. Someone not taking the sacrament wouldn’t cause a batted eye 99.9% of the time. Generally, everyone simply would assume you either were fasting or were not a member.

I have to assume you were attending a ward where people knew you – where there were hard feelings that pre-dated the sacrament situation. If so, shame on them for not being forgiving. There is little that festers and embitters more than the inability to forgive.

We have probably all heard the story of the mirror on the wall that was suspended by multple nails holding it up, but when the last nail came out, it crashed to the floor and broke. Christ’s church was the mirror. When His apostles died the church fell apart. Various people came in picking up one piece here or there, but it was not until Joseph Smith’s time that the Lord restored the fullness of the gospel, and we have the complete picture now. Others are left with only the individual pieces. We proudly tell this story (or a similar one about a glass table with multple legs, etc.) and feel good about ourselves for being in the one true restored church. But for us to take the position that we are the ONE TRUE church means that the others either aren’t true or are less true. That is not a message of acceptance and love. It is perceived as exclusionary and even hateful by some.

And, it doesn’t have to be “thrown in someone’s face” overtly for the message received to be exactly the same. We all know many examples when people say one thing, but mean something MORE than what they said. An example of this would be:

“The Prophet might not be right on this issue . . . ” will set off alarm bells in the heads of most members. The person isn’t saying the Prophet ISN’T right, the person isn’t even saying he thinks the Prophet isn’t right. He is saying he MIGHT not be right (which isn’t necessarily even saying that his is WRONG), but few members of the Church would take it that way. They would assume the person is anti-Mormon or “has an issue” or whatever, even though that clearly cannot be inferred from those few words.

We ALL hear more or less than other people say. We ALL try to figure out what the “meaning” is behind someone else’s statement.

And, Jeff, your statement in #71:
“Friends don’t tell others friends or insinuate they are going to hell simply because they do not accept a certain version of doctrine. And friends also listen to what the other person says and turly seeks to understadn rather than just to make a counterpoint.” “BTW, that line is a standard line from most of the anti-mormons out there.”

Particularly with the “BTW…” statement you could certainly be taken as someone attempting to “make a counterpoint” rahter than seeking to truly understand.

Communication is an extremely difficult process. My favorite statement about communication came from a former Relief Society President friend of mine when she said: “The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it took place.”

You’re such a mensch!

“Haha. So Jeff, are you now giving license to all Mormons, from Packer to Toscano, to make whatever generalizations about Mormons, however negative, and you will not get up in a tizzy over it, because they can say “I am Mormon”?’

And, I would stop them????

Andrew, this is where you went wrong. I don’t see what Joe is eating as poison at all. To follow the analogy, he can live off of what eats and be perfectly fine. We invite people to feast at the Lord’s table and have a balanced diet from all the food groups. If folks are not interested, we tell them thanks and move on. I’ve never heard or said to anyone that they will go to this place or not go to the other place.

You can have a partial meal or a full meal, it is all up to that person. We do not condemn those who eat less.

“If you don’t, accept this, get baptized by someone with authority, etc. . . . you won’t get this degree of glory.’

It might be true, but I’ve never heard it thrown up in someone’s face like that.

Remember, I can say this, I am Jewish. No flames, pelase.

Haha. So Jeff, are you now giving license to all Mormons, from Packer to Toscano, to make whatever generalizations about Mormons, however negative, and you will not get up in a tizzy over it, because they can say “I am Mormon”? Just wondering how those rules work for you.

Sure they do. We do it as Mormons, we just don’t use the word “hell”. We send missionaries out and invite them to join us on our trip to the Celestial Kingdom, which is the highest heaven, and the only way to get there is to accept our version of doctrine. If you don’t, accept this, get baptized by someoone with authority, etc. . . . you won’t get this degree of glory.

That isn’t really a very different message to the non-LDS folks than confining them to hell. In their minds there is one “celestial” place, and if we say they can’t get there, then the option is “non-celestial.” We may feel we are saying something different than that, but that is often “What They Hear”. Just like you obviously “Heard” a different message than Joe thought he was delivering.

This is similar to Ray’s cafeteria mormon thread. Joe was warning you not to eat the poison. You didn’t see it as poison, but as delicious and nutritious, while you see what he is eating as poison. It might just be that the two of you survive by very different diets, and have very different needs. What is satisfying and useful to one of you, might be useless and unsatisfying to others.

My daughter, for example loves salads and can make a lovely meal of a salad. I, on the other hand, consider a salad to be only a “teaser” served before the food comes, and utterly useless on its own. Salad isn’t so much food as it is the promise that food will be coming later. Yet my daughter eats a salad, feels satisfied and goes to work out in the gym. I eat a salad and walk away hungry, desperately needing food. It just doesn’t work the same for the two of us. We’ve come to accept that, and get along just fine, but there were times when I would insist she eat a little more meat and she would scold me for not eating my rabbit food. We were both trying to show love, but it was frustrating to both of us at times.

If you think that Judiasm is non-judgemental, you’ve never had a Jewish Mother or a Jewish family.

Imagine this dialogue:

Sadie: My son, the lawyer works for one of the most famous law firms in the country. Tell me, Elsie, about your son?
Elsie: My Son is a Doctor.
Sadie: Oh, is he????
Elsie: Yes, he works in an inner city hospital and volunteers at the free clinic each week.
Sadie: Oh, (with a look of concern) I am so sorry to hear that. But, as long as he’s happy……

Jewish Mothers expect their sons (especially) to do well. They expect their daugthers to marry well. Remember, I can say this, I am Jewish. No flames, pelase.

I suspect that Neal may have been speaking tongue-in-cheek.
If either fear of punishment, or desire for reward are really what motivates members to “believe” and correspondingly behave like decent people, and without the fear of punishment or possiblity of reward they would truly change their behavior to become dispicable people, that is truly frightening.

If we as a people are so wicked in our nature that our religion has to coerce and manipulate us (by threats or promises of reward) to treat behave decently, then that doesn’t speak well of us at all.

If the Church isn’t true, then I’ll still be fat. I’ll still love my wife, I’ll still love my children. I’ll still work. I’ll still reach out and help others when I can. If the church isn’t true, I would hope it wouldn’t change very much of anything for anyone.

Now, I realize there are exceptions among any religion’s members, but I have never here nor anywhere else advocated a judgmental perspective toward other faiths. They do much good, and we have much to learn from one another. The LDS I have found who are judgmental are generally pretty provincial. They are not the rule among my acquaintance. OTOH, coming on a Mormon-themed blog to tell your LDS “friends” you (politely) think they are probably going to hell (as Joe said) may be judgmental or kindly meant. Either way, it is not my view and doesn’t have any sway on me. I wish all well who follow the dictates of their conscience.

I seldom encounter the sort of people to whom you refer on MM. Those people dismissed this site as heretical long ago.

Also, I think you will get fewer people “looking at others with different beliefs in a new light” on this site than most religiously themed blogs, simply because there are very few (if any) people who comment here who look at others with different beliefs as evil or bad or whatever.

Many good responses but I didn’t hear anyone say “If it really isn’t true…” I might look at others with different beliefs in a new light. Maybe with less contempt, maybe with more love and sense of equality.

After all “If it really isn’t true….” then I’m not going to be any more exalted than they.

-ps Time to get to work, be good to each other.

#61 Joe – thanks for your perspective, but I’m in Jeff’s camp on this. If LDS weren’t true/useful to me, I’d probably become Jewish (or maybe UU/agnostic/atheist).

Believers and non-believers truly are alike. If you remove the technicality of what you are being asked to believe we’re just people, with the same reactions, same feelings.

It’s un-comfortable to be the “non-believer” when surrounded by assertive believers “who know” they’re right.

It must be challenging for non-believers who live in areas where assertive believers are the vast majority. Neighborhoods, schools, work, cities, even states.

We should try to understand and accept. A little less pride and a bit more compassion.

“If you wonder if it’s true or not, go to the source. Take a serious scripture study plan, and pray to be gided and iluminated. You will find out, if you truly want an answer.

End of argument.”

I remember going round and round with the “pray if you want to know it’s true and if you don’t get an answer you didn’t want to know”. I don’t do that anymore. I decided to say no thanks to guilt, the gift that keeps on giving.

If Ray’s correct that people really can’t know, then how can “we” judge them? And if we can’t judge them then how can “we” feel good about ourselves?

-ps Ray I agree with you. I don’t think I can know as you know, as you probably can’t know as I know. But that’s ok.

People are not to be conquered, they’re to be loved and understood.

Biology, Destiny and the Soul: Or, What Am I, Really

There is a C.S. Lewis quote in comment #11 that is particularly insightful.