Prophecy about Jesus return within 56 years – History of the Church, Vol. 2:189
Jesus did not return within fifty-six years when 1891 arrived.

Apostle Patten to go on mission in Spring 1839 – Doctrines and Covenants 114
He was shot in Oct. of 1838. Wouldn’t God have known he was going to die before the next spring?

Prophecy that the temple would be built in Missouri within Smith’s Generation – Doctrines and Covenants 84:2-5,31
i. The Mormons were driven out of Jackson County in 1833. They were not gathered there in accordance to this prophecy dealing with building the temple.
ii.The prophecy clearly states that the generation present when the prophecy was given would not pass away until the temple was built at the western boundaries of the state of Missouri which is in Independence. This clearly failed.

All Nations would be involved in the American Civil War – Doctrine and Covenants 87:1-3
This is clearly another false prophecy since all nations did not get involved in the American Civil War

Prophesy that the earth will tremble and the sun be hidden in “not many days. – Doctrine and Covenants 88:87
i. The sun hasn’t yet been hidden nor has the moon hidden its face.
ii. This prophecy was given on 12/27/1832. “Not many days hence”?
Since the writing of this article on 6/22/06, it has been 63,364 days or 173 years, 5 months, 26 days. I think that 63,364 days is more than “not many days”. For reference to January 1, 2000 it was 61,000 days (even), or 167 years, 5 days.

Prophecy that Isaiah 11 was about to be fulfilled – Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith, History, verse 40
This has not yet been fulfilled. The wolf is not dwelling with the lamb, the calf and the lion are not together, nor are the cow and bear grazing together. The lion is not eating straw like an ox. Nursing children are not playing in the dens of cobras.

Zion (Independence, Mo.) can not fall – Doctrine and Covenants 97:19
Mormons were driven out.

Army to redeem Zion (Independence, MO) – Doctrine and Covenants 103
Mission unsuccessful. V.30-34 Mormon God seems to be unsure about how large an army to raise.

Build a temple in Nauvoo and house for Smiths – Doctrine and Covenants 124
Temple and house not completed.

US Government must redress wrongs or be destroyed – History of the Church, vol.5, p.394, vol.6, p.116 and Millennial Star, vol.22, p.455.
It doesn’t and is not destroyed.

Three grand keys to test Messengers – Doctrine and Covenants 129
No known reference where any LDS church leader ever used this test. Does God give meaningless revelations?

Now these are just some of the false prophecies of Joseph Smith Jr.

j.

#36, Bruce, good way to keep things on track. Your responses to Joe have been both diplomatic and concise. I learned something. I got involved in responding to some evangelical-type commenters on Mormanity.blogspot.com and MormonMentality.org. My conclusion is that we need to be very diplomatic and keep the doors open because some of them eventually “graduate” from their Bible studies and come to more knowledge about the gospel. I found Christ as a teenager in an evangelical-type church, and brought whatever good and correct things I had with me when I joined the LDS church. I commented on it more extensively at:
http://www.mormonmentality.org/2008/08/25/mormon-home-evening-by-helen-hulse.htm#comment-89911

Thanks.

Before I answer your question on 132:4, which I believe you are misinterpreting, will you please answer me this:

Ex. 40: 15
15 And thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest’s office: for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations.

Since the Aaronic priesthood was meant to be an everlasting priesthood, and since unlike Mormons you believe it wasn’t, was this a false prophecy to you?

And also, please explain how you personally interpret the Egyptian prophecy that didn’t seem to come true before we continue.

If you don’t want to respond to these (I wouldn’t if I were you) so that we can do a fair comparision of our beliefs wihtout a dual standard, I’ll understand, but then this conversation is over. Thanks for your time.

Regarding Ezek. 29: 10-13. There is archeological evidence that those places exist. The bible has places and peoples that exist in real life, not made up geography and civilizations. Why hasn’t a single city talked about in the Book of Mormon been found? It is too big of a stretch for me personally to believe in places that don’t exist, people that don’t exist, languages that don’t exist, etc.

Since you asked for a, “documented example of Joseph Smith giving a false prophecy as per your own standards that you have now established.”

I won’t do a google list of Joseph’s false prophesies… How about D&C Section 132, Verse 4: For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.

Is the entire LDS faith damned? What does everlasting mean? Maybe the FLDS are right?

The Missouri temple certainly doesn’t qualify anymore, the Saints had their promises revoked due to their own unrighteousness. (To say nothing of the fact that that prophecy was actually a quote from the Bible about Jesus returning in “one generation.” Yes, I know that doesn’t actually mean one literal generation, but since it’s a quote, I have always wondered why antis use it when it undercuts their own beliefs if taken the way they use it for Mormons.)

Also, how do you view –
Ezek. 29: 10-13
10 Behold, therefore I am against thee, and against thy rivers, and I will make the land of Egypt utterly waste and desolate, afrom the tower of Syene even unto the border of bEthiopia.
11 No foot of man shall pass through it, nor foot of beast shall pass through it, neither shall it be inhabited forty years.
12 And I will make the land of Egypt desolate in the midst of the countries that are desolate, and her cities among the cities that are laid waste shall be desolate forty years: and I will ascatter the Egyptians among the nations, and will disperse them through the countries.
13 ¶ Yet thus saith the Lord God; At the end of forty years will I agather the Egyptians from the people whither they were scattered:

There is no archelogical evidence at all that this prophecy ever came true. You either have to accept that the prophecy did come true but evidence wasn’t found or you have to accept that it got revoked even though the scriptures never say so.

Also, many Bible prophecies “come true” in ways that a skeptic like yourself, if you were not using a dual standard, would consider somewhat silly. For example, Jacob being told by prophecy that God would bring him out of Egypt so finally they carry his bones out. Same with Joseph. Again, I understand that to God the bones and the descendants were part of the whole in these prophecies, but they are certainly not straightforward interpretations as you are demanding of the Mormons.

A few others:
* Prophecy of Judah reigning until Shilo comes. But Saul (first) wasn’t Judah and Jews were conquered long before Jesus came.
* Prophecy of 400 years in Egyptian captivity, but it’s actually 430. A skeptic like you would probably think that the 30 miss was relevant if not using a dual standard.
* Soloman’s kingdom didn’t last forever like prophesied… at least not literally. Of course we both believe it did in the sense of Jesus being the spiritual successor of David and Soloman. But again, a skeptic like you is using a dual standard here.
* Multiple promises of driving out the Caananites that never come true. Yes, I know, due to unrighteousness of the Israelites. But again, a skeptic like you is using a dual standard.

If the Bible were Mormon only scripture, you’d be scoffing at this “failures of prophesy” right now on this very site.

Just trying googling “false bible prophesies” or something like that and you’ll find out how easy it is to play the game you are playing with your own beliefs. Time to rethink this particular attack on Mormonism.

We can go on and on about the circular debate of does God exist or does the Bible prove itself true? You know where we all stand to a large degree. After all, you claim to be once LDS and live in a small Utah town. So, bringing the typical arguments to bear doesn’t get us very far. Most of us have heard it all before. Including yourself?

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.(NIV)

We might have to agree to disagree on this issue, but I belive “logic” is essential for true belief. If you can’t follow something logically how can it be believed? I don’t want to get off track (and make Ray mad at me) but, how can the Book of Mormon be true when there is no logical archaeological evidence for a single city, person, civilization, etc.

Hawkgrrrl: I do not believe “logic” is flawed AT ALL in spiritual matters. You say that God can not be proved or disproved. I say he can. Look at his creation, his fingerprint, his immaculate design. God is provable beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Back to the claimed double standard….

I’m assuming you are speaking of Jonah’s prophesy that Nineveh would be overturned?

The book of Jerimiah has an answer for this:
If at some time I announce that a nation or kingdom will be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it” (Jer. 18:7-10).

1. God makes an announcement that a nation will be uprooted, etc. That is what prophets often announced, isn’t it? Jonah’s prophecy fits this case – he simply announced that Nineveh would be overturned.
2. God calls that announcement a warning. If the people repent, God will relent.
3. Therefore, God’s prophetic judgments are actually prophetic warnings: “This is what you’ll receive if you don’t repent.”
4. God announces that a nation will be built up.
5. But if that kingdom does evil and does not obey God, He will reconsider and not do the good he had promised.
6. Therefore, God’s prophetic promises are actually prophetic incentives. “This is what you’ll receive if you continue in faithfulness.”

C’mon, Joe, this is where the rubber meets the road. You need to apply the same standard as you would to Joseph. After all, you used to be LDS, didn’t you????

They all meet the test?

Also, Joe, I notice you didn’t even try to address the actual answer I gave to your first statement – but rather switched topics. That’s also classic, but I will chalk it up to mere oversight this time. I really don’t care to keep that particular threadjack going, since it really isn’t relevant to this post, so don’t worry about it. We’ll keep focused on the actual issue of a double standard.

So, let’s get over this ridiculous analogy once and for all. I am perfectly willing to equate spiritual experiences of non-fanatics across a variety of religions. And “logic” is equally flawed in spiritual matters. The very existence of God cannot be proven or disproven.

About feelings, you don’t believe that the Holy Spirit can witness of truth?

Jeff: All of the OT and NT prophets pass the Deuteronomy test.

Joe, we know the list of CLAIMED false prophesies.

So, Joe, which OT and NT prophets and apostles fail the Deuteronomy test?

I assumed you were all intelligent enough to know the list of Joseph’s false prophesies.

I wanted to know how Ray tests prophets personally (especially considering he believes Mohommad “might” have been a prophet). His test appears different than mine, which is okay with me. I’m just trying to see his perspective.

My personal test is more in line with the Deutoronomy tests as you assumed.

Deuteronomy 18:21 – 22)
And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

And then say that Joseph was a false prophet because….. and a list will then emerge like the building of the Temple in Missouri.

That’s what I suspect. The same old tired stuff…

I believe that “prophet” means less than what we tend to think of now when it applies to those who lived much earlier. For example, the OT speaks of prophets and prophetesses sometimes “only” as those who passed on a message from God (received through some sort of revelation or strong inspiration – like Isaiah’s focus on the future Messiah) or “only” as those who were called to perform some great service for God (like Samson, who was as deeply flawed as any). In this generic sense, Mother Teresa might be considered a prophetess, for example.

Otoh, Prophets (“The prophet”) were generally those who occupied a particular position of leadership for God’s children (like Moses and Samuel in the OT, Alma in the BofM, Peter in the NT, perhaps Mohammed or Confucious or Oshaka-sama or the founder of any other religion). It’s a subjective determination, but Jethro (Moses’ father-in-law) is a GREAT example of someone OUTSIDE of the “standard” lineage who had “the Priesthood” and might have been a Prophet of his time. Frankly, he and the Wise Men of Jesus’ time are fascinating examples of people who might show that non-Biblical people’s had prophets and Prophets among them. The Brother of Jared is another.

That might not be the answer you wanted (essentially, “I don’t know; it’s subjective.”), but it’s all we have right now. I just read the Bible and Book of Mormon and come to the conclusion that God spoke with more of His children than we have recorded there.