Nevertheless there will always be a minority who will not get the point you are trying to make….

My response is shaped by our experience after moving on to a new denomination. I know several LDS women who feel similarly inauthentic and are maintaining appearances for their husbands and family. I do know more men in this state than women. This could be that the common understanding is true that more men face this kind of situation than women. It might also be that I have more opportunity to talk with men about these kinds of things than women. Either way, the opportunity I see for myself is to help more married couples we know, LDS or otherwise, see in our example that it is healthy for a marriage to pursue openness, authenticity, understanding, and respect about matters of faith pursuit. It’s not healthy to live out faith just for tradition and appearances.

There are a lot of family reasons for people staying active. I have often felt among the priesthood that if it weren’t for wives, a number of the brethren would disappear.

I really think the first question should have the same scale as the last 2 questions. It seems quite misleading that the first number is so low compared to the last 2 questions. When I was reviewing people’s scores, at first I thought nobody was active here.

I thought the assessment was well done. I would like to see more assessment questions relating to experiences with things of the Spirit. In the final analysis that is the most important part. I believe each of us need to have scared experiences with the gift of the Holy Ghost, just like the prophets teach in the standard works and in General Conference.

“You’re twisting this argument now. Scripture you quote is talking about how people reach that knowledge, its not about knowing or not knowing.”

?? – I honestly don’t have any clue what you mean by that, given the quote I used.

“Your saying that ‘believers’ don’t necessary know that its true.”

Correct. Why is that controversial at all?

“Anyway I see now why you hold some of the philosophical views you have.”

Like . . . What? Again, I don’t know what you mean.

“But thats fine, you have a right to believe whatever you want too off course.”

I think you mean “of course” – not “off course”. I only mention it, because both actually fit in context.

“I’m not judging you! Nor is it a ‘burden’ to answer 10 to those questions.”

I only said it is a “burden” if someone insists that someone else who has been in the church for a long time should “know” everything mentioned in those questions.

“People should simply be past that level after going to church for years plus a mission plus maybe Institute, plus their current calling.”

That IS judging others, and it isn’t scriptural. Again, our scriptures say very clearly that those who believe without knowing but endure faithful to the end will be blessed.

“I mean wondering still if the BoAbraham is true, well, I’m repeating myself here.”

Are you serious? I accept the BofA as inspired by God, but whether or not Joseph actually translated an ancient, written record to produce it is debated by hardcore, faithful, Mormon historians. Pretty much everyone (all professional historians) now agrees that the scrolls weren’t translated literally. If they can’t agree on that one, it’s easy to see why regular lay members might express doubt that it is “the word of God” – especially if they interpret that to mean “direct revelation to the ancient prophets mentioned in it”.

Finally, your comment is that all long-time members should be able to score 100-100, but the scoring system itself doesn’t support that. Think about this wording:

“Numbers between 6 and 9 represent increasingly strong belief – ‘I don’t know for sure, but I believe the statement is true;’ ‘I think it is correct’.”

This means that someone could score 70-90 and be expressing “strong belief” in each and every statement. How is that a sign of “needing to return to the basics? Couple that with a score from the first section that classifies that person as “very active” and you have a strong, dedicated, believing, active member. That’s a negative in some way?!

Sorry, but I just don’t see it – and I’ve seen too many people leave activity and even the Church who were this type of member but made to feel inadequate and unworthy by those who demanded they score 100-100. I have at least two people who are VERY close to me who have been crushed by such unrealistic expectations, and it’s judgmental and wrong. Even Jesus’ disciples who spent 3 years watching his miracles and hearing his sermons couldn’t answer right away that he was the son of God. Seriously, think about that: It appears that there might have been only one of twelve (and the most impetuous one, at that) who could testify with knowledge that, “Thou art the Christ, the son of the living God.” At best, there was not unanimity among the disciples in that knowledge. If they weren’t able to know with absolute confidence even in his presence, I’m not going to hold all members now to that standard.

AJ – There’s a wide gulf between “the gospel is true” and “I am true.” Ultimately, I think the latter is the more important one to me subjectively and experientially. But, no one is perfect in living the gospel. The key is to continue to improve, which is the heart of Mormonism.

All I can say is that I comprehend a man who believes but fails to live up to his beliefs far more than someone who is active but doesn’t believe.

God knows I’ve failed in living up to my beliefs often enough.

That said, you might want to think about it a little. If you really do believe it, shouldn’t you at least attempt to live the gospel? Maybe somethings seem too big to change or correct, does that mean you can’t correct anything?

Anyway I see now why you hold some of the philosophical views you have. But thats fine, you have a right to believe whatever you want too off course. I’m not judging you! Nor is it a ‘burden’ to answer 10 to those questions. People should simply be past that level after going to church for years plus a mission plus maybe Institute, plus their current calling. I mean wondering still if the BoAbraham is true, well, I’m repeating myself here.

My whole life has been filled with crap, and the last 8 years has been a steady diet of nothing but, so I think I got plenty of credit when it comes to having trials, and not shattering because my faith is so brittle.

There are plenty of things I don’t know. Like why I’m miserable and in pain, while all these rebels and apostates around me have success show down on them when they aren’t even trying to get it. I don’t know what I’m supposed to do anymore to fix my problems. But that doubt doesn’t negate the knowledge that I’ve already gained about the truthfulness of the restored gospel. So I just keep on going on with what I do know, and figure God will let me know the rest when He’s ready.

I got nothing against a “doubting Thomas”, but I am annoyed when a “doubting Thomas” uses his doubt as justification for posturing as my moral or intellectual superior.

Carlos, our own scriptures tell us that not everyone will be able to answer a 10 even on the question about knowing that Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God, as that score is defined in it. Not every one can “know” – and expecting them to be able to do so drives many away due to feeling like they are failing somehow. That burden should never be placed on someone else. Some are given to know, and some are given to believe – and those who are given to believe should not be made to feel inadequate because of it.

Interesting thoughts. I’ve come across this issue before in MM even back when it was only John Dehlin’s podcasts. Seems that there are many life long members who struggle with this and don’t have that 100,100 faith in the unique mormon doctrine.

I really think that mother Theresa expressed what life is like without what we call ‘Gift of the Holy Ghost’ and this is so for many who like her do good and live for Jesus or for God. But for us, due to this Gift, we should be well past the doubting over those very basic questions listed here. Maybe if people here had doubts about ‘the buffetings of Satan’ or other more complicated doctrine I’d understand them more, but the questions here are the very basic ones.

And that father in Mark (imo) was only asking to know more after coming to the knowledge that Jesus was the Christ after seeing that miracle, not doubting his own faith, as I understand it. (Off course its always better to reach that knowledge via the spirit.)

From those in my life and certainly in my own life, faith can and usually does coexist with doubt. “Lord, I believe. Help thou mine unbelief” Mark 9:24 is a favorite scripture. It lets me know I am not alone in my doubting faith.
Alma 32 distinguishes between perfect knowledge (knowledge beyond any doubt?) and faith.

D&C 46:13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.
14 To others it is given to believe

As I speak to people, I belief this scripture to be true, that the best “knowledge” that some are meant to come to is a belief, even though that is contradictory to what is found in other scriptures and what is taught elsewhere.

In the Mormon community, testimonies include “I know”. What do people mean when they say that? That is for each to say. A 90 year-old member of our ward, a former bishop and a life-long member of the church never says “I know” in his testimonies. He says “I believe with all my heart”. I applaud his integrity. It would be so easy to say “I know” when that is not what he means or wants to say.

I, a struggler, found comfort in reading “Mother Theresa, Come Be My Light”. This book, a collection of her writings, talks about the prolonged absence of God’s spirit in her life, despite all of her good works and total dedication to Him. I believe this is the situation with many LDS as well, although few (any?) are as spiritual as Mother Theresa was.

Who cares, however, since it’s all in how you interpret the question – which proves my point completely.

Obviously by mentioning the celestial, he is referring to ‘Kingdoms of Glory’ and hell is not one of them. Re #21.9, So it is correct doctrine as its worded since the implication if ‘Glory’ exists.

Yes, very. The basics is where one starts to find a testimony of all those things, from believing in that first vision/visit to the Book of Abraham and all the rest of it. I don’t harbor any doubts at all, even though I’d like to see some things change in the church, like the garments or missionary strategy, what some of the brethren do and some other macro-management issues.

I’d point out that whether the question askis: Do you believe the WoW is from God, or Does God want us to avoid alcoohol, or Is the Wow inspired text? I’d answer 10 for all. Same with BoM: was it translated, was it inspired, is it the work of God, I would also answer 10 for each as all the others. Once one fully accepts that God’s hand is in this work the semantics of these faith questions isn’t all that important. There’s no need to consider a 100,100 as an outlyer nor that there is some doubt implied in faith, that’s a contradiction for me.

(But seeing that so many here are moderate makes me understand why there is so much pro-gays stuff in MM!)

I suggest that the 100-100 folks probably just didn’t parse the questions like some of us have. Also, we’ve observed on this site before that those who tend to be most certain and black/white in their beliefs are most vulnerable to swinging to the other end of the pendulum. It’s faith for a reason; doubt is implied. If your faith has no doubt mixed in, it may be brittle and easily shattered. But that’s just an opinion.