I was born a non church member as a mortal human being on earth.
With no viel over my minds eye.
And remember being in heaven a sa person.
Falling through the air down too earth.
to be born to a unknown mortal mother on earth with this message.

No go forth and teach the people of these things that you see and do here.
And are a part of.
so that they might believe.

end of message

what dose it mean.
Heaven is a butiefull place And It can cause tears to a person who see’s the destruction caused by war between Lucifer and Jesus Christ’s people over the plan of salvation.

I remember being on a Priest’s quorum superactivity and having our 1st assistant give a talk on repentence. As we were outdoors and not bounded by traditional rules for sacrament meetings, he took his tape recorder and played his “My Turn On Earth” tape with the song:

Just in case you need to erase
It was figured out before
a thing called repentence
can wipe out a sentence,
a page or a chapter or more.

I’m the one who writes my own story
I’ll decide the person I’ll be.

I remember thinking and still think about what a spiritual experience that was. Hearing that music in the woods with talks by someone that you related to on your own level. It was great.

“Paper Dream” in particular stands out to me as a very moving song.

“I take some paper in my hand,
an with a pencil draw a man.
The dream of what I’d really, really, like to be.”

My other favorite was “Sailing On”.

It’s strange to me that nobody has mentioned those songs, which to me spoke more about the personal and individual nature of redemption, while other more… Mormon folksy songs seem to get all the attention.

This is an excellent point. As a former “menace to society” who heard this “encouragement” to marry and make it work, it seems to me that one of the mission of the GA’s is to “prompt” the priesthood to “progress.” While I believe that it is true “that almost any good man and any good woman can have happiness and a successful marriage if both are willing to pay the price”, I’ve seen some that have to pay quite dearly. I waited and found someone that was better for me than any other person that I had an opportunity to marry. I don’t know if I knew her “sometime, who can be certain when”, but she is NOW my soul mate.

Once I heard from someone that he knew someone who’s patriarchal blessing said that in the pre-existence, his best friend was Hyrum Smith. If this was truly inspired and we did have best friends in the pre-existence, then I would think its a possibility that a friendship akin to soul mates could be real.

How can you not mention that the spirits of the pre-existent SW characters had differences in age that matched the differences of their earthly counterparts! Or that the pre-existent names were the same as the earthly names? It would seem that the pre-existent Flinder’s should all be similar in age but have physical resemblences to their earthly counterparts for authenticity. I jest in this, as the theater is a place to be inspired and entertained and poetic/dramatic license is very important. If you watch the special features of the movie Brigham Young, they talk about how the President of the church at the time thought it was important for the purpose of dramatic license to portray President Young as being unsure of his calling until the end of the movie. This is disappointing for LDS watchers as he comes off as more wishy washy.

I was one of the unfortunate who’s parents didn’t follow the throngs to the theater and missed the first run of SW. So, they took us to a follow-up dud called “Threads of Glory”. (Awful). When we finally went to the theater to see a SW revival, the bad guys had been watered down to one wanton wench called “Sheila”. This brought a different image to the lyric “I know a place where we can get it together!”

1. Wife = soul mate? Okay, not exactly. But, look at it this way: God is (apparently) in charge of which pre-mortal spirits go into which little babies being born. (Paul said that God is in charge of the “bounds of our habitations”, ie where and when we’re born, etc.) In other words, God was in charge of where and when and to whom you were born, same as all your school mates throughout grade school, junior high, high school, college, and your co-workers too. In other words, God is/was in in charge of the “pool” of available people you can meet, at least in terms of where and when you and they were born or placed on earth.

Or, as CS Lewis wrote in “The Four Loves”: “But in Friendship… we think we have chosen our peers. In reality, a few years’ difference in the dates of our births, a few more miles between certain houses, the choice of one university instead of another, posting to different regiments, the accident of a topic being raised or not raised at a first meeting – any of these chances might have kept us apart. But, for a Christian, there are, strictly speaking, no chances. A secret Master of Ceremonies has been at work. Christ, who said to the disciples ‘Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you,’ can truly say ‘You have not chosen one another, but I have chosen you for one another.’ The Friendship is not a reward for our discrimination and good taste in finding one another out. It is the instrument by which God reveals to each the beauties of all the others.”

I’m not saying CS Lewis trumps President Kimball. But how do we apply President Kimball’s words? Did he mean it “generally” doesn’t happen, or did he mean it “never” happens?

I’ve met plenty of people who give me a sense of deja vu. I’m pretty confident I’ve met many of them in the pre-mortal existence. And why not? Wouldn’t cohorts from the pre-mortal existence also have a good chance of ending up cohorts in mortality, both in terms of time and location? In the words of Judy Tenuta: “It could happen!”

2. Eternal Time Warp: “Oddly, when oldest sister Pam Flinders dies, she immediately sidles up to, and strikes up a conversation with, the still-unborn Emily.”

We have no scriptural evidence of whether this is possible or not. In the standard missionary presentation, the place where pre-mortal spirits live is not the same space where post-mortal spirits live. But we don’t know exactly where those places are, or whether any travel or communication can occur between them. Maybe the sisters weren’t _actually_ together, but through a vision-like experience, like a holographic video conference, they were “virtually” together.

Come on, let’s allow some poetic/dramatic license here.

A point in favor of the Sat-W presentation is this: The early apostles and Nephite disciples (except John the Beloved, and the 3 Nephites) wanted to go “where Jesus was” immediately upon death, and if Jesus is where the pre-born spirits are, then yes, post-mortal spirits can go where pre-born spirits are.

So this possible meet-up isn’t proven, but it isn’t disproven either. Plus, we don’t know about what temporary exceptions there are for cross-over visits.

3. re: My kid was a general in heaven. No, but at least he was a soldier in that war against Satan and his followers, and worthy enough to have been placed on earth at a time when the fulness of the gospel is on earth.

The vast majority of the 2/3rd’s of heaven who were on the right side in the war, were born and died on earth when the gospel was not available. And I bet those who lived on earth without the gospel might be just a little bit jealous of those who got to live during the gospel times, and even had a chance to hear it. Or to even be born in the true church! “Wow! You lucky dog! I was born a European peasant in 1242, and died of measles!”

Next sub-point: Have you seen how true patriots today treat the living veterans of World War II? The only ones left alive were just teenage foot-soldiers and ordinary seamen back then. No generals and hardly any officers are left, they’ve died off. And the surviving foot-soldiers are getting a tremendous amount of respect, even if they were just a supply clerk or cook back then. They showed up, they answered the call, they fulfilled the callings and tasks assigned, they got on the ships and went into war zones. Why not give “veterans of the war in heaven” the same respect?

4. Missionary worship. Ok, you got a point. But the Lord does do special miraculous things for his missionaries, prior to their missions (he knows which ones are going in advance, of course), during their missions (keeping them alive when they do stupid stunts), and blesses them tremendously post mission as a reward (even though most don’t actively recognize the blessings, since many take decades to show up or be noticed.)

If anything, it’s the _potential_ that full-time misisonaries have for miracles. Most don’t actually live up to their potential to open the windows of heaven. But read the scriptures, and since God is a God of miracles and gifts, the same yesterday and today, all that stuff you read about missionaries in the scriptures is available to today’s missionaries, if they, and the rest of us, live up to it. As Moroni said, if miracles and spiritual gifts have ceased, it’s becaues faith has diminished, not because God has changed.

I think we have to face one of the tough facts of the gospel: The gospel can be very “corny” from a worldly or jaded viewpoint. Paul often said in his letters: the gospel is foolish in the eyes of the world, and believers are fools in the eyes of the world.

————-

I think it’s expecting too much to ask for a work of art to be universally applicable in every nuance. Let it have some poetic/dramatic license, and acknowledge that everything has some hyperbole and exaggeration. Instead of condemning it for not being 100% scripturally supported, celebrate the good parts and allow its metaphors to be applied in limited applications instead of demanding it fit universal or least-common denominator situations.

http://www.holymovies.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=30_28_32_21&products_id=207

I’m still fond of Saturday’s Warrior after all these years

And I’d still like to see it some day.

http://www.tomtrails.com/

Next sub-topic:

In the Spencer Kimball Priesthood/RS manual, you’ll also find the quote:
“yet it is certain that almost any good man and any good woman can have happiness and a successful marriage if both are willing to pay the price.”

But look at what’s immediately in front of it and behind it.

In front: “In selecting a companion for life and for eternity, certainly the most careful planning and thinking and praying and fasting should be done to be sure that of all the decisions, this one must not be wrong. In true marriage there must be a union of minds as well as of hearts. Emotions must not wholly determine decisions, but the mind and the heart, strengthened by fasting and prayer and serious consideration, will give one a maximum chance of marital happiness. It brings with it sacrifice, sharing, and a demand for great selflessness. …”

Behind: “Two individuals approaching the marriage altar must realize that to attain the happy marriage which they hope for they must know that marriage is not a legal coverall, but it means sacrifice, sharing, and even a reduction of some personal liberties. It means long, hard economizing. It means children who bring with them financial burdens, service burdens, care and worry burdens; but also it means the deepest and sweetest emotions of all. ….

Those young people who chart their course to a marriage in the temple have already established a pattern of thought which will make them amenable to mutual planning with the chosen partner once he or she is found. ”

So if you take SWK’s “almost any good man and any good woman” quote in context, you’ll see that he means something quite more than just “any good man” and “any good woman” which seems to be the cultural or folkloric interpretation of it.

Also, I like to point out that to SWK a “good” man or woman would likely be someone who appears near-perfect in our lesser eyes.

He specifically mentions using fasting and prayer to assist in making one’s decision. Now this doesn’t mean there is “only the one”, but it seems to clearly imply seeking divine approval of one’s choice.

So I agree w/Shawn on one level: SW has had a profound impact on doctrine, but ultimately, it has played the part that folks like Bo Gritz and Strom Thurmond have for the Republican party…that is, provide a caricature of weirdness so extrme(at least to present ears…its contemporaries left the musical weeping) that no one wants to be caught being like Julie Flinders.

I liken Alma 32 to dating/marriage, along the same lines that any good man/woman who are willing to work at it can be successful. Even if it has been good in the past, you have to keep nourishing. Soul mates not required.

One of the earlier Utah productions was a Spanish Fork HS, and according to the story, while the soloist was singing “Who are these children coming down”, one of the lighting techs lost his footing and in full view of the audience fell on the stage . . . and some audience members thought it was part of the show.

The most effective production of SW I saw had Jimmy enter drinking a Pepsi with the outline of a pack of cigarettes in his shirt pocket. And, in the embarrassing scene where the missions bombard the poor guy with pamphlets, the last item they pulled out was a Donnie and Marie poster.

I’d hoped this type of thing would disappear, but then the whole batch of Hale/Storm filmed road shows hit the market . . . .

Unsurprisingly, one of the segments of my novel is about a group of young people putting on this play (see here). The story delves into the theology of the piece, and you’ll (perhaps) be pleased to note that one of the protagonists is the guy who ran the spotlight.

Sadly, I must have missed this quote from SWK growing up. My parents read “Added Upon” (by Nephi Anderson) to us for FHE and I thought for sure that there WERE soul mates. This caused some heartache when after ten years of marriage my husband said he didn’t believe in soul mates. I was crushed. He of course explained that didn’t mean he didn’t love me, but I had grown up with this idea that at some point in the pre-existance that were reflected in our relationships today. My parents must have really focused on that principle a lot.

Earlier this year I was reading The Mormon Experience or Essays on New Mormon History (I can’t remember which) but there were quotes from John Taylor about soul mates and the pre-existence and I said “Ha! At one point this was taught”.

“[We have] the present-day practice of combining the splendor of the gospel with the lowest fashionable idiom of the day, the kitsch of the Broadway stage, as a means of selling inferior compositions in the Church market. The facile, sentimental Broadway melody tolerable in its place is set to equally mawkish words and exalted to the realm of high art simply by assigning it the subject of the First Vision or the Temple. This is definitely hitting below the belt. It is like trying to raise the standard and status of a school simply by giving it the cheap and easy title of ‘the Lord’s University.’ ”

Lex acknowledged in his book “Pop Music and Morality” that SW and MTOE were his response to such shows as “Jesus Christ Superstar” and “Godspell”, as well as Christian rock, which he regarded as offensive because they married the Word of God with the Devil’s Music.

Actually, we have to credit My Turn on Earth with coming up with the doctrine that Satan and Jesus presented their plans in heaven rather than Satan opposing the Father’s plan and Jesus supporting it. It took years to get that doctrine back out of the Church.

Those lyric are deeply embedded in the back of my head, too. No… removing…. them…. aaaaaagggghhh!

Have you seen ‘The Ark’? False doctrine is alive and well and musical! It’s right up there with the best of the cheese, and I’m sorry to say I have the soundtrack. Michael MacLean decided to include our good, old fashioned racist folk doctrine that Egyptus was black, thus explaining Ham’s exclusion from the priesthood.

“Why Wally Kessler you oughta be ashamed of yourself!
I’ve given you the best years of my life!
I’ve stood here through it all,
Through short and fat and tall,
Through thick and thin and rain and snow and ice!
And now you’re questioning my IN-TE-GRI-TY!
Is that anyway to treat your future wiiiiiiiiife?”

“I’ve seen that smile somewhere before!”
-”I’ve heard that voice before!”
Both: “It seems we’ve talked like this before.”
“Sometimes who can be certain when…?”
-”But if I knew you then…?”
Both: “Its strange I can’t remember. Feelings, come so very strong,
Like we’ve known each other soooooo loooonngg.”

“Jimmy, oh Jimmy don’t listen to them,
How can they say they’re your friends?
If they take you away from your family and home,
They’ll leave you alone in the end.”
-”Isn’t there a someone with a hand to spare,
Who can share what they have for my hunger?
Isn’t there a someone, who will take me as I am,
Brace me up, not put me down,
Make me feel like I’m as good as another?”
–”Jimmy, we love you,
That’s all we have to offer.
Jimmy, we need you,
Please don’t turn us away.”
—”Hey Flinders, yo Flinders,
Come on we gotta go FlinDERS,
We got a world out there, FlinDERS!
Believe us, we’re your frieeeeends.”

Man I don’t think I’ll ever be able to successfully purge the music from Saturday’s Warrior from my brain. But hey, as much cheese and questionable doctrine you might find in the musical, Douglas Stewart and Lex de Azevedo had a knack for songwriting and formulating a compelling, multi-layered latter-day family drama that has withstood the test of time. From the perspective of LDS film history, Saturday’s Warrior holds a special distinction as the first LDS film that was not made or sponsored by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or Brigham Young University. (Source: Wikipedia).

What I’m struck most by in the musical is the fluidity with which the characters engage and incorporate the doctrine of eternal families into literally every decision of their lives. This, of course, is intentional, and given the constraints of the medium, is heightened by the compression of time so that it seems like nothing else happens in the lives of the characters except situations where they must confront, reaffirm, reject, or struggle with their faith in eternal families. Still, it provides a sort of sounding board for my own life. How often do I situate my decisions, my attitudes, and my actions around the LDS plan of salvation? Sure, I make decisions all the time in the best interest of my family, but I don’t know if I’m constantly thinking of how its binding us closer together in an eternal family unit or anything. And I’m certainly not picturing my unborn children, singing in harmony up in the premortal realm, yearning for my wife and I to conceive.

My guess is that we’ve not seen the last of Saturday’s Warrior. And as much as I hate to admit it, that might not be a bad thing.