But, in my mind, there is a line beyond which our prayers transform into attempts at celestial manipulation, rather than sincere requests on behalf of our fellow man. Pinpointing exactly where that line lies, however, is tricky. Perhaps, like obscenity, it is a “I know it when I hear it” standard. What do you think?

I think the key is whether we’re praying in the presence of the person we’re praying for. If we are in their presence, it’s much more likely that we’re being manipulative. In other words, if the other person can hear us pray and we know it, then we’re more prone to actually talk to that person under the guise of talking to God. If we’re praying out of the hearing of the person we’re praying for, our prayer can’t be manipulative in the same way, I don’t think. We still might be praying for something that has consequences we don’t want to think about, as illustrated by The War Prayer, or we might be asking God to limit someone else’s agency so we can have something we want. In general, we might be asking for bad stuff, but I think it’s not comparable to how we try to manipulate people when we pray for them in their presence.

Just from that verse: robe of righteousness, escape from captors, a straight path, hedging up the enemy – these are all atonement symbols.

FWIW, I don’t think it’s inappropriate to ask for things that the Apostles are pushing, such as Prop. 8 getting passed. Even if it’s wrong, you’re still showing God that you trust him by trusting the people he’s put at the head of the Church.

So now I primarily use prayer as a way to thank God for things and I only ask for Him to help me do good things, have a clear mind to make good judgments, etc.

Matt 5:44: “But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; ”

2 Ne 4:33: “O Lord, wilt thou encircle me around in the robe of thy righteousness! O Lord, wilt thou make a way for mine escape before mine enemies! Wilt thou make my path straight before me! Wilt thou not place a stumbling block in my way—but that thou wouldst clear my way before me, and hedge not up my way, but the ways of mine enemy.”

I think the first scripture is interpreted by Christ’s followers to use prayer as a weapon against those who don’t agree with their worldview (such as the pro Prop. 8 prayers mentioned above). I believe that these sincere individuals believe that those who pray this way perhaps see themselves praying for their persecutors to come around to the “truth” set forth by God, and that the prayer serves both to align the person praying with God’s cause, and also enlists His help in helping the Other see the error of their ways. I’m almost certain that this was not Christ’s intent. Taking a stab at it, I would say that Christ is teaching us to love everyone regardless of how they treat you. It probably does not mean that you should wish to have all your enemies have a change of heart and see things as you do, or even as you perceive God does. That’s probably beside the point to God; He probably wants you to love others, and use prayer as a meditation that leads to actions (bless them…, do good to them…) that helps you overcome your natural inclination to hate.

The second scripture, taken from “Nephi’s Psalm” has Nephi praying to the Lord to have Him place a stumbling block in the way of his enemies, possibly to prevent that enemy from threatening his physical, spiritual, emotional, etc. safety. Does prayer become a defensive parry or shield against the attacks of the Other? Is this the same or different sort of prayer from the prayer as weapon (sword)? Is “defensive” petitionary prayer more loving than “offensive” petitionary prayer?

It’s a risky path to enlightenment. I think when one sees this shortcoming in others it is hard not to be judgmental and even seriously put off — like Twain’s “War Prayer” or Dylan’s “With God On Our Side” aptly illustrate. Yet such awareness can lead to pride that also becomes a barrier to effective prayer.

I think prayer begins as a helpful ritual for living focused outside oneself when one can become self aware of the one’s own natural inclination to treat God like a magical vending machine. I remember my Mom’s advice when I was young to deliberately and regularly make time to have only “thankful prayers”. It seems like applying the principle of fasting to the habit of prayer.

Prayer is can be a beautiful act for vocalizing the needs of others into the ether of our human interconnectedness. It can build hope, family, community and living with commitment to our most ideal myths. It can reinforce one’s humility, vulnerability and dependence on God. It can be a way to say what cannot comfortably be said person to person. It can be a way to inspire us into personal and collective action. When we pray as a family, it gives us a moment to hold hands together and feel more unity.

I try to pray “thankful prayers” with more regularity. When action is desired I try to resist the urge to vocalise imperatives for God. Instead I ask for His help to help me/we/us find the strength for action and decision. It’s hard to avoid sounding “apart” and “other” when praying from this perspective, trying to avoid pat phraseology while you are also trying to build community with those more “selfish” who believe God is on their side.

This is excellent food for thought and i can see hundreds tonight thinking more closely about the kinds of prayer they offer. I know that I will. I just wonder how we get over the roteness of:

1. We thank Thee… – Thank Heavenly Father for your blessing and the things that you have received.(Thanks for the money for the big flat panel)
2. We Ask Thee… – Ask for the things we need (like please get my sister to stop hitting me…. or at least punish her good!)

My mom was the queen of manipulative prayers when my brother and I were in high school. That was her forum to say everything that we wouldn’t otherwise stick around to hear. Later, she was embarrassed that she’d behaved this way. Afterward, family prayers became more focused on asking for blessings for others and help for those who were struggling–giving a gift rather than climbing up on a soap box.

I’ve experienced some powerful shifts when I pray for enemies, for people I don’t particularly like or who are making my life difficult. This takes major effort on my part, as I’m more naturally inclined to b!tch and moan about them. When I go against my nature and ask God to help them or give them what they need, it completely changes how I relate to these folks and the situation. I don’t do it as often as I probably should, but I can definitely recommend it!

I recently read a book (I think it was by Brian McLaren, an evangelical minister/writer) in which the author talked about how we always ask God to let his spirit be with us in our meetings, as if He would somehow not bother if we didn’t ask. His answer was, “But isn’t God’s spirit always here, always available to us?” This made me rethink all those rote lines we hear in church meetings and at home. Maybe it would be more appropriate for us to ask for clarity and awareness that we can be in tune with the spirit that is already there.

I have to think about it some more before I comment further. Thanks.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_War_Prayer