Comments on: Poor Pontius Pilate http://mormonmatters.org/2008/10/12/poor-pontius-pilate/ A weekly podcast exploring Mormon culture and current events. Thu, 09 Feb 2012 18:18:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Nardavaiagina http://mormonmatters.org/2008/10/12/poor-pontius-pilate/#comment-157283 Nardavaiagina Sat, 02 Apr 2011 23:10:00 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=2338#comment-157283 Why did Governor Ford state that he feared being compared to Pontius Pilate? Why did Governor Ford state that he feared being compared to Pontius Pilate?

]]> By: Nardavaiagina http://mormonmatters.org/2008/10/12/poor-pontius-pilate/#comment-157284 Nardavaiagina Sat, 02 Apr 2011 23:10:00 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=2338#comment-157284 Why did Governor Ford state that he feared being compared to Pontius Pilate? Why did Governor Ford state that he feared being compared to Pontius Pilate?

]]> By: James Joyce http://mormonmatters.org/2008/10/12/poor-pontius-pilate/#comment-92382 James Joyce Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:38:48 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=2338#comment-92382 Well researched site - I love Bernard Cornwell's work! - Will look to incorporate some of your ideas into my site. Thanks! Well researched site – I love Bernard Cornwell’s work! – Will look to incorporate some of your ideas into my site. Thanks!

]]> By: Russell http://mormonmatters.org/2008/10/12/poor-pontius-pilate/#comment-41639 Russell Wed, 15 Oct 2008 14:32:05 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=2338#comment-41639 Were I to compare the Pilate and JS stories, I would place Sharp as the character of the raging mob. He had no official authority of any kind, but spoke very loudly and could influence the powers-that-be (such as Ford). Were I to compare the Pilate and JS stories, I would place Sharp as the character of the raging mob. He had no official authority of any kind, but spoke very loudly and could influence the powers-that-be (such as Ford).

]]> By: James http://mormonmatters.org/2008/10/12/poor-pontius-pilate/#comment-41562 James Wed, 15 Oct 2008 07:40:03 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=2338#comment-41562 Arthur Great post- Not trying to thread jack here but on the same lines on JUDGING OTHERS knowing what we know about psychology. I wonder if Lehi would have treated his sons differently if he lived in our day? Maybe talk to them individually- not for all of their siblings and others to hear what a mess they were publicly. I personally believe it has a huge impact on us what is said about us publicly good or bad. Arthur

Great post- Not trying to thread jack here but on the same lines on JUDGING OTHERS knowing what we know about psychology. I wonder if Lehi would have treated his sons differently if he lived in our day? Maybe talk to them individually- not for all of their siblings and others to hear what a mess they were publicly.

I personally believe it has a huge impact on us what is said about us publicly good or bad.

]]> By: Velska http://mormonmatters.org/2008/10/12/poor-pontius-pilate/#comment-41444 Velska Tue, 14 Oct 2008 21:59:40 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=2338#comment-41444 Pilate participated in something that had to happen. I think at some level Jesus talks about this when he says, "offenses must come, but wo unto those by whom they come". That said, I won't cast the first stone - he did enough bad stuff without Jesus' trial that he'll have something to answer for. An even more conflicting character, IMO, is Thomas Sharpe, the editor of Warsaw Signal in Illinois 1842-1844 (1842 may be wrong, I haven't the time to check). He was the main instigator of the violence towards the saints and Joseph in particular, and participated at least to some extent in the assassination. After the martyrdom and subsequent trials where he was predictably acquitted, he went back to a normal shopkeeper's life, never publishing his thoughts after that. He was among those who started the Signal (that changed to another name for a while when there was conflict about the editorial policy) for the express purpose of agitating against the Mormons. (Granted, the analogy is lacking, since he was no governor.) Again, I'll refrain from stone throwing... Pilate participated in something that had to happen. I think at some level Jesus talks about this when he says, “offenses must come, but wo unto those by whom they come”.

That said, I won’t cast the first stone – he did enough bad stuff without Jesus’ trial that he’ll have something to answer for.

An even more conflicting character, IMO, is Thomas Sharpe, the editor of Warsaw Signal in Illinois 1842-1844 (1842 may be wrong, I haven’t the time to check). He was the main instigator of the violence towards the saints and Joseph in particular, and participated at least to some extent in the assassination. After the martyrdom and subsequent trials where he was predictably acquitted, he went back to a normal shopkeeper’s life, never publishing his thoughts after that. He was among those who started the Signal (that changed to another name for a while when there was conflict about the editorial policy) for the express purpose of agitating against the Mormons. (Granted, the analogy is lacking, since he was no governor.)

Again, I’ll refrain from stone throwing…

]]> By: Eric http://mormonmatters.org/2008/10/12/poor-pontius-pilate/#comment-41258 Eric Tue, 14 Oct 2008 04:52:54 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=2338#comment-41258 Jorge Luis Borges wrote a thought-provoking story about Judas and how his betrayal of Jesus was actually the ultimate sacrifice, since he would not be redeemed. Disturbing but thought-provoking. Another tie-in: Pilatus, a Swiss peak, is known in local legend as the burial place of Pontius Pilate, who sought peace from his conscience, or something like that, in the remote Alps. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilatus_(mountain) Jorge Luis Borges wrote a thought-provoking story about Judas and how his betrayal of Jesus was actually the ultimate sacrifice, since he would not be redeemed. Disturbing but thought-provoking.

Another tie-in: Pilatus, a Swiss peak, is known in local legend as the burial place of Pontius Pilate, who sought peace from his conscience, or something like that, in the remote Alps. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilatus_(mountain)

]]> By: Russell Stevenson http://mormonmatters.org/2008/10/12/poor-pontius-pilate/#comment-41132 Russell Stevenson Mon, 13 Oct 2008 21:53:47 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=2338#comment-41132 "The author of this history feels degraded by the reflection that a humble governor of an obscure state who would otherwise be forgotten in a few years, stands a fair chance, like Pilate and Herod, by their official connection with the true religion, of being dragged down to posterity with an immortal name, hitched onto the memory of an imposter." Thomas Ford, HIstory of Illinois, pg. 360 “The author of this history feels degraded by the reflection that a humble governor of an obscure state who would otherwise be forgotten in a few years, stands a fair chance, like Pilate and Herod, by their official connection with the true religion, of being dragged down to posterity with an immortal name, hitched onto the memory of an imposter.”

Thomas Ford, HIstory of Illinois, pg. 360

]]> By: Arthur http://mormonmatters.org/2008/10/12/poor-pontius-pilate/#comment-41091 Arthur Mon, 13 Oct 2008 19:32:31 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=2338#comment-41091 There is a statement to that effect on his Wikipedia page, but no source is cited unfortunately. There is a statement to that effect on his Wikipedia page, but no source is cited unfortunately.

]]> By: JimD http://mormonmatters.org/2008/10/12/poor-pontius-pilate/#comment-41068 JimD Mon, 13 Oct 2008 18:15:27 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=2338#comment-41068 @3: Isn't there some quote from Thomas Ford out there about how he hoped history wouldn't view him as another Pilate? @3: Isn’t there some quote from Thomas Ford out there about how he hoped history wouldn’t view him as another Pilate?

]]> By: Ray http://mormonmatters.org/2008/10/12/poor-pontius-pilate/#comment-40797 Ray Mon, 13 Oct 2008 02:15:03 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=2338#comment-40797 "When something in history seems to have no answers, people tend to fill the void with their own agendas, and I’m no exception. And thus we see that in some cases, when we judge the morality of others, we are actually looking at ourselves. “Our people” I’ve noticed have somewhat of a love affair with judging the morality of those not within our stewardship (Richard Dutcher! Brother Marriott! Kirby Heyborne! Emma Smith!)." Amen. I find that tendency fascinating, and I really like how you wove these specific examples into the post about Pilate. (Would he and a wife/daughter/son have been the great Roman fitness trainers? Sorry.) I was addressing this tendency to judge "our own" differently, albeit in the case of my post the leniency we often use for our own, when I wrote the following last month: <a href="http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2008/09/love-thine-enemies.html" rel="nofollow">Love Thine Enemies</a> “When something in history seems to have no answers, people tend to fill the void with their own agendas, and I’m no exception. And thus we see that in some cases, when we judge the morality of others, we are actually looking at ourselves. “Our people” I’ve noticed have somewhat of a love affair with judging the morality of those not within our stewardship (Richard Dutcher! Brother Marriott! Kirby Heyborne! Emma Smith!).”

Amen. I find that tendency fascinating, and I really like how you wove these specific examples into the post about Pilate. (Would he and a wife/daughter/son have been the great Roman fitness trainers? Sorry.)

I was addressing this tendency to judge “our own” differently, albeit in the case of my post the leniency we often use for our own, when I wrote the following last month:

Love Thine Enemies

]]> By: Jeff Spector http://mormonmatters.org/2008/10/12/poor-pontius-pilate/#comment-40732 Jeff Spector Sun, 12 Oct 2008 22:07:17 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=2338#comment-40732 I agree with Joe here, somewhat. the NT Gospels are written from a perspective that is critical of Jews to the almost exclusion of any other conspirators in Jesus' death. The Roman Leaders including Pilate where equally culpable even if he thought he should stop it and did not. However, owing to Justin's comments above, someone had to do it for the plan to be accomplished. After all, it was the roman form of execution used, not the Jewish form by stoning. I agree with Joe here, somewhat. the NT Gospels are written from a perspective that is critical of Jews to the almost exclusion of any other conspirators in Jesus’ death. The Roman Leaders including Pilate where equally culpable even if he thought he should stop it and did not. However, owing to Justin’s comments above, someone had to do it for the plan to be accomplished.

After all, it was the roman form of execution used, not the Jewish form by stoning.

]]> By: Joe Geisner http://mormonmatters.org/2008/10/12/poor-pontius-pilate/#comment-40677 Joe Geisner Sun, 12 Oct 2008 16:50:30 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=2338#comment-40677 Arthur, A very good post. The reading during your "deconstructive teenage years" is impressive since you came to the conclusions you did. Pilate was at best "cruel" and if not for the anti-Semitic tone of much of the New Testament, the Christian pseudeponymous writings and Christian apocryphal writings Pilate would not have any sympathy in today's world. I suggest Bart Ehrman for any one who wants a historical analysis of Pilate or any of the events and persons in the New Testament. Arthur,

A very good post. The reading during your “deconstructive teenage years” is impressive since you came to the conclusions you did. Pilate was at best “cruel” and if not for the anti-Semitic tone of much of the New Testament, the Christian pseudeponymous writings and Christian apocryphal writings Pilate would not have any sympathy in today’s world. I suggest Bart Ehrman for any one who wants a historical analysis of Pilate or any of the events and persons in the New Testament.

]]> By: Jan http://mormonmatters.org/2008/10/12/poor-pontius-pilate/#comment-40662 Jan Sun, 12 Oct 2008 14:17:00 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=2338#comment-40662 I always thought it interesting how much like Governor Ford, President Van Buren, and others he was. I always thought it interesting how much like Governor Ford, President Van Buren, and others he was.

]]> By: Justin http://mormonmatters.org/2008/10/12/poor-pontius-pilate/#comment-40660 Justin Sun, 12 Oct 2008 13:57:24 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=2338#comment-40660 Christ had to die...why get so worked up over the people who did a necessary, albeit bad, thing? Christ had to die…why get so worked up over the people who did a necessary, albeit bad, thing?

]]> By: Michelle Glauser http://mormonmatters.org/2008/10/12/poor-pontius-pilate/#comment-40648 Michelle Glauser Sun, 12 Oct 2008 12:18:11 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=2338#comment-40648 I used to feel sorry for Satan himself. I mean, he also wanted us to return back to our Heavenly Father. Was that such a bad thing? I understand that we couldn't have learned much if we weren't able to use our agency, but it sure would have been a lot easier for us. However, I'm grateful the way things turned out. And it's quite handy for God to have opposition so we can learn. Pontius Pilate could have fought so hard against Jesus's crucifixion that he could have lost his position, but he didn't do it. However, I'm sure God is merciful and will think about all the factors. I often think of King Noah in the Book of Mormon as well. As you'll notice in verse 11 of chapter 17, King Noah in was "about to release [Abinadi]." Then his darn priests complained until the king was mad again. Lame. Poor guy. If only he'd picked better priests. I used to feel sorry for Satan himself. I mean, he also wanted us to return back to our Heavenly Father. Was that such a bad thing? I understand that we couldn’t have learned much if we weren’t able to use our agency, but it sure would have been a lot easier for us. However, I’m grateful the way things turned out. And it’s quite handy for God to have opposition so we can learn.

Pontius Pilate could have fought so hard against Jesus’s crucifixion that he could have lost his position, but he didn’t do it. However, I’m sure God is merciful and will think about all the factors.

I often think of King Noah in the Book of Mormon as well. As you’ll notice in verse 11 of chapter 17, King Noah in was “about to release [Abinadi].” Then his darn priests complained until the king was mad again. Lame. Poor guy. If only he’d picked better priests.

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