Comments on: Joseph Smith & the Parable of the Money Digger http://mormonmatters.org/2008/10/27/joseph-smith-the-parable-of-the-money-digger/ A weekly podcast exploring Mormon culture and current events. Wed, 23 May 2012 11:40:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Velska http://mormonmatters.org/2008/10/27/joseph-smith-the-parable-of-the-money-digger/#comment-44355 Velska Wed, 29 Oct 2008 23:58:14 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=1923#comment-44355 The money digging has been used to paint a picture of a fortune-hunter. Would a later prophet be dismissed because he bought a lottery ticket in his youth among people who did it too? I like how you bring out that in Jesus' parables treasure-seeking comes up as natural. He also advises us to gather treasures in heaven rather than on earth. Joseph quit using seer stones relatively early - he learned he could get the same kind of revelations without a "crutch". I don't mean the "crutch" as a negative thing here, just trying to express that possibly he initially needed something to prop up his faith. Some people assume he was a mature prophet right after First Vision. But it took 10 years to get to the point where he was ready to organize the Church - he needed the time to grow spiritually as well as intellectually. Sorry, I rambled offtopic here... The money digging has been used to paint a picture of a fortune-hunter. Would a later prophet be dismissed because he bought a lottery ticket in his youth among people who did it too?

I like how you bring out that in Jesus’ parables treasure-seeking comes up as natural. He also advises us to gather treasures in heaven rather than on earth.

Joseph quit using seer stones relatively early – he learned he could get the same kind of revelations without a “crutch”. I don’t mean the “crutch” as a negative thing here, just trying to express that possibly he initially needed something to prop up his faith. Some people assume he was a mature prophet right after First Vision. But it took 10 years to get to the point where he was ready to organize the Church – he needed the time to grow spiritually as well as intellectually.

Sorry, I rambled offtopic here…

]]> By: hawkgrrrl http://mormonmatters.org/2008/10/27/joseph-smith-the-parable-of-the-money-digger/#comment-44317 hawkgrrrl Wed, 29 Oct 2008 19:36:24 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=1923#comment-44317 Rick - no specific recorded dreams. Just that dreams of finding treasure are common archetypal dreams, and superstitious people sometimes take these things quite literally. Rick – no specific recorded dreams. Just that dreams of finding treasure are common archetypal dreams, and superstitious people sometimes take these things quite literally.

]]> By: Rick Grunder http://mormonmatters.org/2008/10/27/joseph-smith-the-parable-of-the-money-digger/#comment-44199 Rick Grunder Wed, 29 Oct 2008 04:02:23 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=1923#comment-44199 What specific recorded dreams are you thinking of (#5)? P.S. I loved your comment in your original post, "Obviously, there wasn’t a lot on TV back then." So true! What specific recorded dreams are you thinking of (#5)?

P.S. I loved your comment in your original post, “Obviously, there wasn’t a lot on TV back then.” So true!

]]> By: hawkgrrrl http://mormonmatters.org/2008/10/27/joseph-smith-the-parable-of-the-money-digger/#comment-44140 hawkgrrrl Tue, 28 Oct 2008 19:37:28 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=1923#comment-44140 GBSmith - I find that interesting too. There seems to be a lack of neutrality on the subject of JS. I am still intrigued by the thought that JS misinterpreted dreams about finding treasure, taking them as a literal sign to seek for earthly treasure when perhaps the dreams were guideposts for an inner spiritual journey. The physical and spiritual are tough for people to disentangle today, but even tougher when life was so physically trying and the temptation to satisfy temporal needs was even stronger due to want. GBSmith – I find that interesting too. There seems to be a lack of neutrality on the subject of JS.

I am still intrigued by the thought that JS misinterpreted dreams about finding treasure, taking them as a literal sign to seek for earthly treasure when perhaps the dreams were guideposts for an inner spiritual journey. The physical and spiritual are tough for people to disentangle today, but even tougher when life was so physically trying and the temptation to satisfy temporal needs was even stronger due to want.

]]> By: GBSmith http://mormonmatters.org/2008/10/27/joseph-smith-the-parable-of-the-money-digger/#comment-44101 GBSmith Tue, 28 Oct 2008 15:08:48 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=1923#comment-44101 What's interesting to me about this discussion is not the fact that JS was involved in money digging but that people's interpretation and perception of the events and motives can be so different. Stu in #3 is dismissive of Bushman's interpretation of events but Bushman remains arguably the most knowlegable person on JS's life and yet remains faithful in his interpretation. I don't think that the reason is that the person on the other side of the argument (whichever side that is) is stupid, blind, superficial, unaware, or worthy of only disdain, derision, or some other disrespect. I'd be interested in people's opinions or a post in the future about what it is that shapes and influences our opinions. What’s interesting to me about this discussion is not the fact that JS was involved in money digging but that people’s interpretation and perception of the events and motives can be so different. Stu in #3 is dismissive of Bushman’s interpretation of events but Bushman remains arguably the most knowlegable person on JS’s life and yet remains faithful in his interpretation. I don’t think that the reason is that the person on the other side of the argument (whichever side that is) is stupid, blind, superficial, unaware, or worthy of only disdain, derision, or some other disrespect. I’d be interested in people’s opinions or a post in the future about what it is that shapes and influences our opinions.

]]> By: Missionary Stu http://mormonmatters.org/2008/10/27/joseph-smith-the-parable-of-the-money-digger/#comment-44075 Missionary Stu Tue, 28 Oct 2008 12:51:36 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=1923#comment-44075 Amen to Joe P's comments. Bushman in "Rough Stone Rolling" intimated that JS's glass looking and money digging were necessary and preparatory to receiving the gifts of the spirit needed to one day act as a prophet of God. Talk about making excuses. Ray said it best: "Joseph wasn’t a prophet at 14 - and arguably not for years later." Or ever. All these years later, and we're still waiting. Amen to Joe P’s comments.

Bushman in “Rough Stone Rolling” intimated that JS’s glass looking and money digging were necessary and preparatory to receiving the gifts of the spirit needed to one day act as a prophet of God. Talk about making excuses.

Ray said it best: “Joseph wasn’t a prophet at 14 – and arguably not for years later.”

Or ever. All these years later, and we’re still waiting.

]]> By: Ray http://mormonmatters.org/2008/10/27/joseph-smith-the-parable-of-the-money-digger/#comment-44028 Ray Tue, 28 Oct 2008 04:20:52 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=1923#comment-44028 "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Faith never becomes blind; faith is blind. Very interesting post, Hawk. It is quite easy to envision Joseph's gold digging in a lot of contradictory ways - the two primary ones being as Joe sees it (an example of consistent fraud) and as I see it (an example of a dirt poor, teenage boy who was open to superstition and the miraculous thinking he had a special gift that could help his family). I simply have a hard time holding the kid to a prophetic standard that fully adult prophets didn't match. If we can excuse some very serious teenage (and even early adult) infractions and indiscretions in our highest political leaders, I can't see a good reason to not excuse them in those who BECAME prophets. Joseph wasn't a prophet at 14 - and arguably not for years later. “Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” Faith never becomes blind; faith is blind.

Very interesting post, Hawk. It is quite easy to envision Joseph’s gold digging in a lot of contradictory ways – the two primary ones being as Joe sees it (an example of consistent fraud) and as I see it (an example of a dirt poor, teenage boy who was open to superstition and the miraculous thinking he had a special gift that could help his family). I simply have a hard time holding the kid to a prophetic standard that fully adult prophets didn’t match.

If we can excuse some very serious teenage (and even early adult) infractions and indiscretions in our highest political leaders, I can’t see a good reason to not excuse them in those who BECAME prophets. Joseph wasn’t a prophet at 14 – and arguably not for years later.

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