“It is very important not to mistake hemlock for parsley; but not at all so to believe or not in God. ” ~Denis Diderot

I think this is true for many theists as well as atheists. It really doesn’t matter if there is a God or not, because they aren’t acting out of belief in god or not. They are doing what they want to do, and what they feel would be most improving to themselves, others, the environment, etc.,

I mean, consider people who claim to believe, but who do not seem too concerned about repentance and changing their actions. I think this is really indicative of the idea that these people at least do not *really* care about the fundamental theist proposition. It’s not that vital in their life, because if it were, it would motivate them to act differently.

So for me, recognizing that I don’t believe in the spiritual claims of the church didn’t lead to that much of a change in my behavior, because my behavior was never based on trying to please God or follow God’s commandments or reach exaltation. It was my culture and my upbringing, it was how my personality formed. It was years of habits. Even now I must determine what aspects I will keep and what I will drop — I scrutinize aspects of this culture to make sure if it still makes sense, but it’s not the case that as soon as I said, “I don’t believe” that the next week I was out having wild bacchanalias. that’s not how it works.

Stumbled across this today

“History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose. ” – Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813

“The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites.”

“Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.” –Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782.

“And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.” –Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

“Religions are all alike – founded upon fables and mythologies.”

“I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature.”

“Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man.”

“It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are 20 gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.”

- Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat

Yes, skeptics are unlikely to become fanatics…an admitted benefit. But is skepticism the highest form of human existence, to just not believe anything? Nothing is eternal, lasting, enduring? Makes for good survival, but I know skeptics…and few of them have struck me as particularly happy people. You second-guess history, you second-guess everybody you know…if you used the historical methods most use in reading a monography in analyzing your friends, you probably wouldn’t have very many friends.

And I really am not inclined to call Marxism a pseudo-religion given Marx’s vitriol towards religion…yes, we can acknowledge that Marx was just fighting for the true believers and was therefore fighting over the same turf, but I fear lest we do undue violence to Marx…alas, I quibble…

Of course such a reason cannot be accepted amongst believing members because it is premised on the idea that there is nothing of divine origin in the Mormon Church. This alternate form of spirituality cannot be tolerated as equal to ‘Mormon’ spirituality and therefore these people must be either prideful or lazy.

I have no reason to believe that the spiritual experiences these people have are any less fulfilling and reinforcing then those that you have had. To label them as prideful or lazy is simple ignorance.

When people leave the Church, they tend to fall into these categories:
1/ Hostile, bitter and very much against God or the Church (sometimes manic, obsessive or weird behaviours are displayed like engagements in ‘obscur activities’
2/ Are comfortable with their choice and get more involved in community service as a substitute to Gospel-action living (working with charity organisations and baking cakes for the neighbours is good, done on your terms and no pressure, but hardly follows the straight and narrow path set through the mysterious and powerful path of the Priesthood)

None of them come back, as Jared pointed out, to say how much more meaningful their Spirit of God-unenlighted life is compared to when they felt the Spirit or to lives of people who say they feel the Spirit regularly. We can’t compare the two, as this is highly subjective, but I can be the lab rat here. Give me a day when I don’t feel the Spirit because I am too busy doing un-uplifting stuff, and a day where I feel his power and blessings: the day without is tasteless, frustrating and forgetable.

It is said in the scriptures that to some it is given to believe in God/Christ, to others it is given to believe in their words. So there are some people in the Church who have a gift of powerful relationship with the Spirit. I don’t understand the gift-distribution process, but what I know is this: if Moroni promises that each one of us can know with certitude that “these things are true”, then I am reinforced in my belief that those who quit the Church or stay in it (as NOMs or wingers)fail to walk the way that will lead them individually to the materialisation of that promise.
I may be talking of the P word here, the one flying over all the scriptures and causing the fall of nations.

A last point: it is not the fear of God who keeps the ‘converted’ in check. A good man is not a guy who is afraid. It is a man who has tasted of the fruit, because he has humbled himself and has followed. He has listened, searched and he has found. What he found is there for all to find. I don’t take the sacrament because of fear, nor go to the Temple because of it. No! There are foods there that take the sheep in patures greener that any other. I’m still waiting for a guy mto come back to me and say: you know, X, since I left the Church, I have been grazing in these greener pastures.
By the way, you can be an active member and still bake cakes for Mrs Smith or take a holiday to Guatemala with your family to spend 3 weeks helping the poor.

“And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.
“And he spake this parable unto them, saying,
“What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
“And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
“And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
“I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.” – Luke 15:2-7

It is should not be surprising to find we publicans and sinners within the Church– or any church– while the ninety and nine who obey God’s commandments naturally and implicitly, have no interest in church-going, or even consider themselves atheistic or agnostic. They don’t need religion. Those outside religious communities are so humble, they probably don’t even think of themselves as righteous– only “moral”.

Ss for myself, weakling and sinner that I am, the only way I can live my life is Ecclesiastes 12:13 — “Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.”

The Rwandan genocide (just to quibble) was fairly unimpressive in terms of its technology but horrific in its outcomes.

At any rate, it’s simply polemical–even absurdly so–to say that religious motivations should have any kind of special place in our condemnation above secular ideology. “The people” have been used as much or more often that “God” as a rallying cry for atrocity.

Moreover, numbers in this range are past comprehension for me, as are the ones that occurred during the religious wars. But citing numbers neglects the idea that all of the above are atrocities and have multiple motivations, i agree that religion cannot be so broadly blamed but i am sure i think counting up who’s responsible for the most vicious events is not helping either side deal with the tragic possibilities inherent in any ‘utopian’ vision that can become fanatical. I am sure that prairie chuck was not intending this to be the case but it is worth mentioning because this type of response from both sides is common.

Political motivation:
Pol Pot 1.7 million
Lenin 6-8 million
Stalin 30 million
Mao 40 million
Chang Kai-shek 10 million

Wars motivated by peace (the irony is stunning):
WWI 15 million
WWII 55 million
Viet Nam 1.7 million
Korean War 2.9 million
Iraq wars 2.5 million

Atrocities motivated Race (well, sort of):
Hitler 6 million
Armenia 1.5 million
Rwanda/Burundi 1.3 million

This is just in the 20th Century. And I’m only counting the big ones (1 million or more), leaving out Indonesia, Philippines, central America, Tibet, all the tribal and civil wars in Africa, the Middle East, Mexico, etc etc ad infinitum.

Nope, religion is just the scapegoat du jour for the horrors of this world. But the fact is man(kind) does a pretty good job of being horrific all on his own. Determining motivation almost seems an afterthought. It kind of calls into question man’s innate morality.

I read, “Easy Come, Easy Go…”. I found it informative. Thanks for pointing this out to me and others reading this post. I found it to be a thoughtful analysis and at the same time sought to increase faith.

You said I am one of the fortunate ones by having both a feeling and manifestation testimony. I don’t understand all the whys and wherefores of the various testimonies had among members. It seems to me that the scriptures point out several reasons Alma 37:46, Alma 13:3-5). In our day, I feel it has to do with the “prosperity” of the times we live in. It is easy to forget God when we have so many resources to rely on other than God. For example, when we get sick we have all kinds of experts available and as a result we “forget” God (Helaman 12:2). My most profound Spiritual experiences have come in a crisis–I couldn’t rely on anyone else so I directed my whole soul to the Lord relying on Him completely.

I have leaned if we want to know God we need to diligently seek to fulfill our baptism covenant and receive the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost–to be born again. There is the baptism of water and the Spirit to have a complete baptism. I wonder how many members in our day have received a complete baptism. In my opinion, the problem with anemic testimonies comes from lack of diligence in doing those things the Lord has told us to do (2 Nephi 31). Many members serve in the Lord’s church, but somehow neglect drawing near to the Lord.

I’ll close with a quote from Dieter F. Uchtdorf on this subject:

The Church, with all its organizational structure and programs, offers many important activities for its members aimed at helping families and individuals to serve God and each other. Sometimes, however, it can appear that these programs and activities are closer to the center of our heart and soul than the core doctrines and principles of the gospel. Procedures, programs, policies, and patterns of organization are helpful for our spiritual progress here on earth, but let’s not forget that they are subject to change.
In contrast, the core of the gospel—the doctrine and the principles—will never change. Living according to the basic gospel principles will bring power, strength, and spiritual self-reliance into the lives of all Latter-day Saints….
May I add a word of caution to those of us who live in large wards and stakes. We have to be careful that the center of our testimony is not located in the social dimension of the Church community or the wonderful activities, programs, and organizations of our wards and stakes. All of these things are important and valuable to have—but they are not enough. Even friendship is not enough. Dieter F. Uchtdorf, “Christlike Attributes—the Wind beneath Our Wings,” Ensign, Nov. 2005, 100

“The standards are high, I know of no other church which requires more of it’s members.”

I used to have the same opinion. That was one of the things that comforted my testimony of the church as a youth. My family and other members of the church seemed so devout and extreme in their beliefs compared to other Christians that it really seemed that it must be true for them to act that way. Back in High School I used to have a sort of unspoken competition with my Jewish and JW friends on who could be more radical in their doctrine or daily lives. It seemed like the right thing to do if you were to be a peculiar people or an example to the “gentiles” .

It wasn’t until much later that I realized that our Church really asks very little compared to some others. Most eye opening was my time with middle easterners and people from India.

Your post places an undue influence on religion as a motivating factor. You’re giving it FAR too much credit.

One can make precisely the same argument for the executioners of Hitler’s holocaust (see the epic Christopher Browning-Daniel Goldhagen debate on this), on the collectivization atrocities in Stalin’s Russia (see Lynn Viola’s work), and on the Guatemalan massacres after the 1954 coup. The Cultural Revolution, the Great Leap forward, the Purges and the Gulag…all completely secular. Atrocities generally require ordinary people, and religion is only one of many rationales.

One might as easily say “when they swallow the wrong ideology and think you’re doing ‘the people’s’ will, they can do all manner of horrible things.” And yes, I can point out stacks and stacks of books are secular people carrying out atrocities worse than any Crusader.

Your categorization of “religionists” is simplistic…and woefully so. Have you ever asked me if I agree with the “I’m and God’s side ergo I’m good and not going to hell” stance? Have you asked me if I think that God’s love is only shown to the believer? Maybe your family has been that way, but I would recommend you let your sample size not only be larger but more representative.

Accuse me of being the outlier if you wish, but since you’re willing to use anecdotes, I will too. I’ve attended quite a few wards packed with outliers…most of them in Provo, UT.

“if a Mormon raised in the church left would their behaviour post-church be different to someone who engaged in pornography, adultery, alcohol, drugs, whatever!! I wonder if there is an increased tendency to revert back or not! I guess i am suggesting there might.”

I think your right its got to be major factor or odds are against someone who lived a different post church life compared to most Mormons.

I think about drinking every now and then, but can’t come up with any good reason to start. (besides that fact that most of my family reunions can be so easily confused with funerals)

Sounds like a good excuse to start drinking only joking!