Comments on: Thorns in the Side: Villains in the Mormon Mind, Part I http://mormonmatters.org/2008/10/31/thorns-in-the-side-villains-and-the-mormon-mind-part-i/ A weekly podcast exploring Mormon culture and current events. Fri, 10 Feb 2012 04:06:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Russell http://mormonmatters.org/2008/10/31/thorns-in-the-side-villains-and-the-mormon-mind-part-i/#comment-45286 Russell Mon, 03 Nov 2008 17:25:11 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=2717#comment-45286 "A) Some of these individuals, I guarantee, will be seen as heroes (or "tragic figures") by Mormon Matters readers. However, as I’m sure these readers recognize, these heroic efforts are generally those of a dissenter…and in order for a dissenter to become famous, s/he has to tick off the powers that be in large numbers. So alas…they make the list." *Insert Russell's politician voice* The perceptions of the LDS people don't represent me or my campaign... “A) Some of these individuals, I guarantee, will be seen as heroes (or “tragic figures”) by Mormon Matters readers. However, as I’m sure these readers recognize, these heroic efforts are generally those of a dissenter…and in order for a dissenter to become famous, s/he has to tick off the powers that be in large numbers. So alas…they make the list.”

*Insert Russell’s politician voice*

The perceptions of the LDS people don’t represent me or my campaign…

]]> By: John Nilsson http://mormonmatters.org/2008/10/31/thorns-in-the-side-villains-and-the-mormon-mind-part-i/#comment-45270 John Nilsson Mon, 03 Nov 2008 15:55:18 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=2717#comment-45270 Rigdon likely suffered the mentally destabilizing effects of the tarring and feathering he was subjected to, as well as a blow to the head during it, that some believe makes him more of a tragic figure and less of a villain. Plus, my goodness, Joseph disavowed most of the leaders at one time or another! He then would welcome them warmly back to the fold a week or two later...his character in this regard, unlike, say Brigham Young, was notoriously unstable. Rigdon likely suffered the mentally destabilizing effects of the tarring and feathering he was subjected to, as well as a blow to the head during it, that some believe makes him more of a tragic figure and less of a villain.

Plus, my goodness, Joseph disavowed most of the leaders at one time or another! He then would welcome them warmly back to the fold a week or two later…his character in this regard, unlike, say Brigham Young, was notoriously unstable.

]]> By: Russell http://mormonmatters.org/2008/10/31/thorns-in-the-side-villains-and-the-mormon-mind-part-i/#comment-44969 Russell Sun, 02 Nov 2008 04:50:53 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=2717#comment-44969 Very true, hawk...but the weakness of his opposition, as I see it, does nothing to weaken his villain status. In some ways it strengthens it. Without a movement, he could be easily cast aside as a heretic...a villain as it were. My post is not about the actual substance of one's contributions...it's about their perceived status in the community. I pick Rigdon over Strang b/c he could be easily categorized and marginalized where as Strang could not be as easily. At any rate, Rigdon's weak defense--at the very least--is independent of his villain status. I know we're getting a little postmodern here, but that's the nature of the animal. Hayden White rocks my world. Very true, hawk…but the weakness of his opposition, as I see it, does nothing to weaken his villain status. In some ways it strengthens it. Without a movement, he could be easily cast aside as a heretic…a villain as it were. My post is not about the actual substance of one’s contributions…it’s about their perceived status in the community. I pick Rigdon over Strang b/c he could be easily categorized and marginalized where as Strang could not be as easily. At any rate, Rigdon’s weak defense–at the very least–is independent of his villain status.

I know we’re getting a little postmodern here, but that’s the nature of the animal. Hayden White rocks my world.

]]> By: hawkgrrrl http://mormonmatters.org/2008/10/31/thorns-in-the-side-villains-and-the-mormon-mind-part-i/#comment-44925 hawkgrrrl Sun, 02 Nov 2008 00:03:44 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=2717#comment-44925 Russell, Sidney's succession claim was not as threatening as Strang. Strangites were almost as numerous as Brighamites for a while due to the Strangite rejection of polygamy which they later (much later) recanted. Rigdon's love of communal living killed his followership. I guess you can't teach an old dog new tricks. And Rigdon was also not a terribly serious rival to Young as he had clearly not been endowed. Russell, Sidney’s succession claim was not as threatening as Strang. Strangites were almost as numerous as Brighamites for a while due to the Strangite rejection of polygamy which they later (much later) recanted. Rigdon’s love of communal living killed his followership. I guess you can’t teach an old dog new tricks. And Rigdon was also not a terribly serious rival to Young as he had clearly not been endowed.

]]> By: Russell http://mormonmatters.org/2008/10/31/thorns-in-the-side-villains-and-the-mormon-mind-part-i/#comment-44777 Russell Sat, 01 Nov 2008 05:36:45 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=2717#comment-44777 I'm already seeing the guesses (both first and second-guesses) coming in...some of you may be right...others? *scratching neck a la Godfather* maybe yes and maybe no... I considered using scriptural references, but in general, they just don't seem to get folks feathers riled. Laman and Lemuel make for lessons learned...you're not going to see someone seethe about how big of an apostate Laman and Lemueul and rail about how they're traitors. Maybe a snide remark about "How could they be stupid?" but that's about it from my experience in the Happy Valley corridor. As far as Emma and Sidney, the former easily makes the list in my view. The Relief Society was in part shut down because of perceived grievances...I hear a few (though very few snide) remarks about her to this day. Most of the 19th century Saints reviled her for deceiving her son David re: polygamy and for staying behind in Nauvoo. The animosty between Young and Smith was epic and trickled down through the Saints. Only within the past half century have we seen her reputation revived as the elect lady I believe she was. And Sidney Rigdon?? Was he really remembered for his contributions, esp. when Joseph himself disavowed him? When Sidney declared himself to be the prophet, at odds with Brigham Young's claims? He became the divider, nay, the false prophet who was trying to exploit Joseph's legacy. While one could argue that there are others who fit the bill, one can hardly maintain that Sidney Rigdon didn't represent a deep challenge to Brigham Young's (and therefore, the Utah Saints') legitimacy. I’m already seeing the guesses (both first and second-guesses) coming in…some of you may be right…others? *scratching neck a la Godfather* maybe yes and maybe no…

I considered using scriptural references, but in general, they just don’t seem to get folks feathers riled. Laman and Lemuel make for lessons learned…you’re not going to see someone seethe about how big of an apostate Laman and Lemueul and rail about how they’re traitors. Maybe a snide remark about “How could they be stupid?” but that’s about it from my experience in the Happy Valley corridor.

As far as Emma and Sidney, the former easily makes the list in my view. The Relief Society was in part shut down because of perceived grievances…I hear a few (though very few snide) remarks about her to this day. Most of the 19th century Saints reviled her for deceiving her son David re: polygamy and for staying behind in Nauvoo. The animosty between Young and Smith was epic and trickled down through the Saints. Only within the past half century have we seen her reputation revived as the elect lady I believe she was.

And Sidney Rigdon?? Was he really remembered for his contributions, esp. when Joseph himself disavowed him? When Sidney declared himself to be the prophet, at odds with Brigham Young’s claims? He became the divider, nay, the false prophet who was trying to exploit Joseph’s legacy. While one could argue that there are others who fit the bill, one can hardly maintain that Sidney Rigdon didn’t represent a deep challenge to Brigham Young’s (and therefore, the Utah Saints’) legitimacy.

]]> By: Confutus http://mormonmatters.org/2008/10/31/thorns-in-the-side-villains-and-the-mormon-mind-part-i/#comment-44756 Confutus Sat, 01 Nov 2008 02:10:57 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=2717#comment-44756 How about another one for the rogue's gallery? Samuel Brannan. How about another one for the rogue’s gallery? Samuel Brannan.

]]> By: Ray http://mormonmatters.org/2008/10/31/thorns-in-the-side-villains-and-the-mormon-mind-part-i/#comment-44753 Ray Sat, 01 Nov 2008 01:45:02 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=2717#comment-44753 #9 - Sorry, but that made me laugh. I changed diapers of six kids, so when I see the letters BM in that type of question ("What's **a** BRM?") I automatically wonder what the "R" stands for. Rigid? Rotten? Retching? Like I said, sorry. BRM is Bruce R. McConkie - someone who is very, very sure s/he knows the answer to any question. #9 – Sorry, but that made me laugh. I changed diapers of six kids, so when I see the letters BM in that type of question (“What’s **a** BRM?”) I automatically wonder what the “R” stands for. Rigid? Rotten? Retching? Like I said, sorry.

BRM is Bruce R. McConkie – someone who is very, very sure s/he knows the answer to any question.

]]> By: Shadow http://mormonmatters.org/2008/10/31/thorns-in-the-side-villains-and-the-mormon-mind-part-i/#comment-44745 Shadow Fri, 31 Oct 2008 23:59:13 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=2717#comment-44745 What's a BRM? What’s a BRM?

]]> By: hawkgrrrl http://mormonmatters.org/2008/10/31/thorns-in-the-side-villains-and-the-mormon-mind-part-i/#comment-44726 hawkgrrrl Fri, 31 Oct 2008 21:55:59 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=2717#comment-44726 I also vote Jon C Bennett as a pretty big villain. Sidney Rigdon was mostly a good guy. Emma's a bit of, well, an enigma. I also vote Jon C Bennett as a pretty big villain. Sidney Rigdon was mostly a good guy. Emma’s a bit of, well, an enigma.

]]> By: hawkgrrrl http://mormonmatters.org/2008/10/31/thorns-in-the-side-villains-and-the-mormon-mind-part-i/#comment-44715 hawkgrrrl Fri, 31 Oct 2008 20:29:42 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=2717#comment-44715 Clay - LOL. Good retort! I think there are 2 kinds of Mormons: BRMers and non-BRMers. I suspect most who appreciate nuance are not big BRM fans. Russell - controversial, but well done. Clay – LOL. Good retort! I think there are 2 kinds of Mormons: BRMers and non-BRMers. I suspect most who appreciate nuance are not big BRM fans.

Russell – controversial, but well done.

]]> By: Matt W. http://mormonmatters.org/2008/10/31/thorns-in-the-side-villains-and-the-mormon-mind-part-i/#comment-44714 Matt W. Fri, 31 Oct 2008 20:28:40 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=2717#comment-44714 Russell: I don't think Emma Smith and Sidney Rigdon legitimately make the lisk. Better villains in Mormon culture are: Cain Satan Korihor Ammonihah Zarahemnah Better villains in Mormon history are: John C. Bennet Ed Decker Lilburn Boggs Russell: I don’t think Emma Smith and Sidney Rigdon legitimately make the lisk.

Better villains in Mormon culture are:

Cain
Satan
Korihor
Ammonihah
Zarahemnah

Better villains in Mormon history are:
John C. Bennet
Ed Decker
Lilburn Boggs

]]> By: Rigel Hawthorne http://mormonmatters.org/2008/10/31/thorns-in-the-side-villains-and-the-mormon-mind-part-i/#comment-44706 Rigel Hawthorne Fri, 31 Oct 2008 19:41:56 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=2717#comment-44706 I'm thinking of the guy who was sent to represent the church in buying the island of Lanai for the Hawaiian members to gather and put the deed in his own name. This led to the subsequent purchase of the Laie plantation, or that's how I remember the story. I’m thinking of the guy who was sent to represent the church in buying the island of Lanai for the Hawaiian members to gather and put the deed in his own name. This led to the subsequent purchase of the Laie plantation, or that’s how I remember the story.

]]> By: Clay Whipkey http://mormonmatters.org/2008/10/31/thorns-in-the-side-villains-and-the-mormon-mind-part-i/#comment-44696 Clay Whipkey Fri, 31 Oct 2008 18:34:20 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=2717#comment-44696 I think this list needs some flavor. Here is how I would complete the last 5 spots in your list: 5. Henry D. Moyle 4. Mark E. Petersen 3. Joseph Fielding Smith 2. Bruce R. McKonkie 1. Brigham Young Enjoy ;-) I think this list needs some flavor. Here is how I would complete the last 5 spots in your list:

5. Henry D. Moyle
4. Mark E. Petersen
3. Joseph Fielding Smith
2. Bruce R. McKonkie
1. Brigham Young

Enjoy ;-)

]]> By: Shadow http://mormonmatters.org/2008/10/31/thorns-in-the-side-villains-and-the-mormon-mind-part-i/#comment-44691 Shadow Fri, 31 Oct 2008 17:50:18 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=2717#comment-44691 I think Fawn Brodie does represent the intellectuals on both sides of the Mormon/anti-Mormon fence. From the research I've done (and it could be incomplete or wrong), she had unprecedented access to records and her conclusions were interesting to say the least. I don't think that intellectuals should have been / be handled that way. I think that she could have contributed a lot to our faith if things would have been handled differently by both sides. I agree with #2. We can learn a lot from the people on this list. Concepts such as duty, honor, and loyalty are a few. Judging someone's entire life and character based on a short period in time is unfair. I'm really interested in seeing what the second half of the list is. I have a few ideas, but I'll keep quite for now. I think Fawn Brodie does represent the intellectuals on both sides of the Mormon/anti-Mormon fence. From the research I’ve done (and it could be incomplete or wrong), she had unprecedented access to records and her conclusions were interesting to say the least.

I don’t think that intellectuals should have been / be handled that way. I think that she could have contributed a lot to our faith if things would have been handled differently by both sides.

I agree with #2. We can learn a lot from the people on this list. Concepts such as duty, honor, and loyalty are a few. Judging someone’s entire life and character based on a short period in time is unfair. I’m really interested in seeing what the second half of the list is. I have a few ideas, but I’ll keep quite for now.

]]> By: Banned Commenter http://mormonmatters.org/2008/10/31/thorns-in-the-side-villains-and-the-mormon-mind-part-i/#comment-44686 Banned Commenter Fri, 31 Oct 2008 17:09:21 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=2717#comment-44686 Boo! Hiss! Not at you, Russell, but at your gallery of scapegraces. I love a good villain in the melodrama of history and look forward to learning who you put in the top five slots. Clever idea. One commonality among these five is that although we have reason to dislike them, in varying degrees, what they did to win disfavor is a very small part of their lives, overall, and if we were fair we would admit that the good they did far outweighs the bad (in general, I mean -- murder is so bad that nothing overcomes it, but still, Lee made huge contributions to the kingdom before that September). We really ought to be more informed and more fair. Boo! Hiss! Not at you, Russell, but at your gallery of scapegraces. I love a good villain in the melodrama of history and look forward to learning who you put in the top five slots. Clever idea.

One commonality among these five is that although we have reason to dislike them, in varying degrees, what they did to win disfavor is a very small part of their lives, overall, and if we were fair we would admit that the good they did far outweighs the bad (in general, I mean — murder is so bad that nothing overcomes it, but still, Lee made huge contributions to the kingdom before that September). We really ought to be more informed and more fair.

]]> By: Arthur http://mormonmatters.org/2008/10/31/thorns-in-the-side-villains-and-the-mormon-mind-part-i/#comment-44685 Arthur Fri, 31 Oct 2008 17:08:23 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=2717#comment-44685 Great post Russ. It makes me think that perhaps any group of people is defined more by who they see as villains than who they see as heroes. Luckily, I feel like the tide of opinion has turned on at least a couple of your entries. Emma, for instance. I've heard a lot more apologists lately for Emma than against her, but this could just be reactive to the pendulum having been swung all the way in the opposite direction. Great post Russ. It makes me think that perhaps any group of people is defined more by who they see as villains than who they see as heroes.

Luckily, I feel like the tide of opinion has turned on at least a couple of your entries. Emma, for instance. I’ve heard a lot more apologists lately for Emma than against her, but this could just be reactive to the pendulum having been swung all the way in the opposite direction.

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