Just a glimpse of my enormous talent is available here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9xgXmEt11A

On behalf of the group and myself, I hope we passed the audition

Jeff will sing for us several of his favorite selections from his families two all time favorite musicals. Get your tickets now from Spectortix. A bootleg version will be available on the internet later.

TRADITION!

People don’t accept Mormon beliefs because they can’t accept the one “root reason” and the “trunk” that springs from it. When they start with a different root system and a different trunk, they get different fruit. It really is that simple.

The “root” of Mormonism is that God, the Eternal Father, literally is our father in a very real and ancestral way. The “trunk” that grows from that is that Jesus, the Christ, literally is God, the Son, whose mission (the “Good News”) is centered on freeing us from the effects of mortality (“The Fall” from the presence of our Father) and returning us (“saving” and “redeeming” us in a state of “at-one-ment”) to Him – cleansed of impurities and ready to become like Him.

That root (OT) and trunk (NT) are the central themes of the Bible, and the primary focus of Jesus’ ministry was to show us how to love EVERYONE as brothers and sisters – to esteem ALL as children of the Father – to achieve individual AND communal perfection (completeness, wholeness, full development) – etc. The epistles are focused primarily on reinforcing that message – that the unity of the Saints is critical to becoming one with God, which is the ultimate objective of life.

Why would anyone reject all that Mormonism offers? I believe the simplest answer is because they don’t accept and believe what the Bible teaches – especially the words attributed to Jesus himself. They say they accept the Bible as the word of God, but they don’t really believe what it teaches – when its teachings are grounded first and foremost on the teachings of Jesus himself. Hence, my advice about prioritizing scripture. JESUS WINS EVERY TIME – and far too many Christians “draw near to (Him) with their lips (what they say), but their hearts (what they actually believe) are far from (Him).”

That’s my blunt answer. Those who reject Mormonism’s theology (not necessarily the Church and its organizational structure, but the core vision of the theology it teaches) do so because they look around and inside them and can’t have faith that God is their literal father and that He can take their incredibly flawed selves, clean them up and make them shine with Celestial glory. They have “a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” Ironically, the power they deny is the very power of which Jesus and His disciples testified as being the core of the Gospel.

Goodness. I can think of tons of reasons. Some are good reasons (“I was raised this way and I’m going to honor my culture.”) Some are better reasons (“I don’t believe in it.”) And, of course, some are bad reasons (“I hate Mormons.”) This is such a personal thing there is no way for me to answer the question. You get to answer it for yourself and for no one else.

If what you are asking me is “do Mormons have one of the most positive views of God of any religion?” then I’d have to say that in my opinion, they do.

Plus, we’d all have to agree that the Mormon view comes with a high price tag for many people.

With all that the mormon beliefs (truths) offer someone, why would anyone want to believe in anything else like the catholics/protestants, jews, and muslims do?

Tim,

Take a look at your own question. With everything that has been said, what do you think the answer is? It’s not a yes or no answer is it?

Now go back and read my original post that started this thread.

What you are trying to do (as do we all) is “figure this out” rationally so that you have an objective answer. It’s impossible. If you are smart enough to get to the bottom of this, you’ll find there is no bottom. If there really were a way to objectively determine “religious truth” we’d all have found it by now.

I commend you for your struggles in this regard. The fact that religious truths about God are beyond our ability to rationalized out, doesn’t mean God objects to us sincerely trying. Indeed, I doubt he’ll answer any prayer that isn’t sincere and I doubt it will be sincere if you aren’t really trying to use the mind in this regard.

Now look at SilverRain’s comments in #60:

However, after the despair expressed in the post, I realized that this understanding is key to understanding the Gospel. Only when we realize that nothing we do is free from flaw can we really begin to grasp what mortality and the Atonement mean.

Because of this epiphany I have finally touched on true humility (though I’ve not yet reached it, I can at least scent it in the air.) Humility is realizing that there is no way to be completely right, that we can only do the best we can and keep our intentions pure.

Only then, can we begin to accept and understand the Savior. [Possibly insert "God" in place of "Savior" as desired.]

This is the answer. You should not “join Mormonism” unless you honestly seek an answer from God and honestly feel God has answered you in the affirmative. The same could be said of any religion. If you do feel you’ve received an answer from God, then how to proceed is obvious: do what you believe God is telling you.

At some point the following thought crosses my (and hopefully everybody’s) mind. “What if I’m wrong? What if I misunderstood? What if I’m letting my biases interfer?”

When this happens, realize that’s just reality. You are weak and nothing without God.

Instead, have faith that there is a God and that He can and is leading you. Have faith that He answers prayers. Have faith that He really is good, really is gracious, really does not lie. Have faith that anyone can approach Him, not just a predestined few.

And then have faith in His mercy for the times you are wrong or do misunderstand — for you will never know how much or where you “got it wrong” for sure. And then stop worrying and seek answers from God again for the rest of your life, always trusting God is leading you, bit by bit, to more. Enjoy the journey. Don’t forget to thank God for it.

I really wasn’t going to come here today, but after noticing your lengthy and well thought out responses, I felt like I wanted to say something that just occurred to me.***

4 Therefore, whoso readeth it, let him understand, for the Spirit manifesteth truth;
5 And whoso is enlightened by the Spirit shall obtain benefit therefrom;
6 And whoso receiveth not by the Spirit, cannot be benefited. …

***Keeping the above answers (revelations) you quoted from god to joseph smith in mind,… does the understanding an individual receives on any question or subject matter that pertains to life or faith (god) ultimately depend on the holy spirit and the wisdom & truth that he provides an individual to DISCERN truth from untruth, FACT from fiction, etc? Is that what it really boils down to when we are looking for answers (truth)?

Two thoughts here. First, you are freely intermixing various speculations of 19th century Mormons about what it means to become one with God with modern Mormon beliefs. This is because you’ve read things Evangelical (Born Again) Christians have said about Mormons rather than what Mormons say about themselves. I’m not denying anything you said, I just don’t know. But I have serious doubts that the 19th century Mormon view of Deification (Godhood) was accurate. See my article here on the subject.

Second, yes, it’s overwhelming. In fact, it seems like it isn’t possible. We can become God just like Jesus is God? How is that possible? It’s not possible, right?

This is EXACTLY why the rest of the Christian world can’t accept this teaching. (Despite it being very historically Christian in many ways. Early Christians fathers did teach a form of Deification similar to this.) They simply can’t fathom the possibility that God is actually capable of making us God with Him — literally adding us to the Godhead.

Is anything too hard for the Lord?

“Maybe that (being at disneyland forever) would get a little boring after a while:), but being an eternal god probably would not.”

I think this is exactly correct. There is no view of the afterlife that could ever be sufficient to make us perfectly happy forever but the one were we attain to all that the Father hath. (See Luke 15:31 and compare to Rev 21:7. Also compare to Matt 11:27 where this is said of Jesus.) And there is no view of God that is perfectly good and loving save this one either. If you had children, would you want them to forever be less than you just to be sure you are the best? This does not make sense to me.

Tim, I appreciate the questions you’ve been asking. I think Jeff and Ray gave some pretty good answers.

Let me add my own view here, even if you don’t get to read it.

First, let’s start with what I perceive many Christians (Jews too maybe?) as believing the truth about scripture to be. I’m going to call this the “Born Again (Evangelical) Christians View” of scripture because that’s whom I associated it with the most. This doesn’t mean they are the only ones that hold this view nor does it mean all of them hold this view.

The Born Again Christian view of scripture is one where scripture — to them that’s the Bible — is perfect and infallible. People that hold this view tend to not differentiate a hierarchy like Ray did in #81.

Under this view — which I believe to be fatally flawed, by the way — we’d take Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount and say that it is exactly equally in authority to Paul’s marriage advice in 1 Corinthians 7. The thinking goes that the Bible is scripture and scripture comes from God and God is perfect, thus all scripture is perfect.

The problem is 1) there is no scripture that teaches this, thus this is actually an extra-scriptural belief, 2) the scriptures deny this possibility.

For example, Paul, in 1 Cor 7:6 states: “But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.”

So here we have a conundrum. Paul, in the scriptures, tell us point blank that what he is about to say isn’t directly from God. Now what!? However, later on, he says he thinks he is being inspired by the Spirit. (see v.40.)

The Born Again Christian view is that Paul thought he was just speaking for himself, but then he was really inspired, so this chapter is as authoritative as the Sermon on the Mount.

I think that’s hogwash, to be blunt. I don’t have space here to go into all the different ways to read this chapter — there are many. All I can say is that I take Paul at face value. If he says “not by commandment” (essentially, this is my best inspired opinion based on our current circumstances) I think he means it. Period.

So who believes the Bible more? The Born Again Christians that claims 1 Cor 7 is equally in authority to the Sermon on the Mount, or me, that believes 1 Cor 7:6 exactly at what it says? You be the judge.

Now compare the Born Again Christians view to what God revealed to Joseph Smith in D&C 91. This is a revelation that Joseph Smith received because he wanted to know about the Catholic Apocrypha. These are books from Old Testament times that Catholics consider Scripture but Protestants don’t. Joseph, naturally, wanted to know if they were really scripture like the Old Testament and if people should study them out like the rest of the Bible.

The answer from God was shocking: (I’m skipping a few parts)
1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you concerning the Apocrypha—There are many things contained therein that are true, and it is mostly translated correctly;
2 There are many things contained therein that are not true, which are interpolations by the hands of men.
…
4 Therefore, whoso readeth it, let him understand, for the Spirit manifesteth truth;
5 And whoso is enlightened by the Spirit shall obtain benefit therefrom;
6 And whoso receiveth not by the Spirit, cannot be benefited. …

This was the opposite of the Biblical infallibility view (what I’m calling the Born Again Christian view) of the time. Things were supposed to be either scripture and true or they were false. But here God is saying that there is a hierarchy. Some things are more true than others. Some contain more interpolations that didn’t come from God than others. Thus something can be partially from God and partially not from God at the same time.

Based on this view, Mormons have a view of a hierarchy. We put the most emphasis on our 4 books of scripture: The Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price. We put a lot of emphasis on, but not quite as much, the words of the presidents (prophets) and apostles of the Church. We put slightly less emphasis ones that are dead then ones that are living (on the assumption that inspiration has a temporal component. We put less emphasis, but still quite a bit, on local leaders. Eventually we get outside of our own Church/Religion and we still put some emphasis on these. We find much truth there and even some truth not revealed within the Church. We wish to collect that and make it our own. But we aren’t likely to spend time in Sunday School studying the Koran or Mary Baker Eddy. If a Mormon is interested, they can do that on your own prayerfully and still gain insight from the Spirit while ignoring the parts of those teachings that are not really from God.

I personally have found a ton of inspiration from the early Christian and apostolic fathers (first 3 centuries, anyhow.) I think those people were very close to God (the so-called apostolic fathers actually knew the original apostles) and I try to work their teachings into my life to some measure.

I have found a lot of inspiration and truth with C.S. Lewis (a favorite amongst Mormons) even though he’s a relatively “orthodox Christian” in his views. In fact, C.S. Lewis’ writings have helped me to understand several revelations from Joseph Smith that I don’t feel I understood before reading Lewis. I truly believe God inspired and revealed things to C.S. Lewis. But that doesn’t mean I think his writings have anything close to the same authority as scripture. And I disagree and disbelieve many things Lewis taught, though I think they were honest mistakes where he was just doing the best he could to understand God from the scriptures.

I agree with you. To the (my) natural mind, these doctrines (issues) are very complex and it hurts my brain thinking about them any more (at least at this point). So yes, it’s definitely time to focus on the simple things:) With that said, I will mediate and pray about simple things for a while.

Yes, it is a stretch to beleive that if you are not able to assimilate and accept the basic doctrines of the Gospel as taught by Jesus. As Joseph said, the journey is like a ladder, you must start at the beginning and progress rung by rung. You cannot very well reach the top rung until you are at the one below it.

You can’t accept to be like Jesus until you understand the true nature of God, His Son and the Holy Ghost. Just like you can’t solve triple integrals if you can’t add two number together.

Tim, you need to put aside the complex doctrines and focus on the simple things.

Nope.

If you are serious about trying to reach an understanding, you should be considering everything with an open heart AND mind and praying sincerely to the Father in the name of the Son to feel the confirmation of the Holy Ghost – so you have your own personal prophecy / witness from the Godhead / Trinity. It really isn’t much more complicated than that. If you sincerely believe God is telling you to accept Mormonism as restored Christianity (as the closest thing we can get to what Jesus himself actually taught), you have an obligation to act on that; if you sincerely believe God is telling you NOT to accept Mormonism as restored Christianity (as the closest thing we can get to what Jesus himself actually taught), you have an obligation to act on that, as well.

It’s between you and God, and it’s up to you to act according to your own inspiration / prophecy / direction from God. My only advice:

Try to set aside all previous interpretations and give our beliefs the benefit of the doubt. Too often, people with whom I have discussed these things can’t get past what they have been taught in other denominations, even when it seems clear from a simple parsing of the Bible itself that those teachings aren’t in harmony with the words of Jesus himself. That is true especially of evangelical denominations. My standard is simple – and opposite of what you assumed earlier:

When dealing with the Bible, ALWAYS grant top priority to the words of Jesus. Interpret EVERYTHING else through the lens of his words. For example, if there seems to be a discrepancy between what Jesus says in the Gospels and what a prophet or apostle or disciple or early Christian father says, Jesus wins – EVERY TIME, regardless. If there is a discrepancy between what a NT prophet or apostle says and what an early Christian father says, the NT prophet or apostle wins – EVERY TIME, regardless. If you do that honestly and scrupulously, I believe you will see that the teachings of “The Restoration” are aligned very well with the original teachings of Jesus, slightly less well with the teachings of Paul, slightly less well with the teachings of some of the most influential early Christian fathers, not all that well with most of the Protestant reformers and not well at all with most 19th and 20th Century Protestant ministers.