got guns?

November 25, 2008
By

While the various media outlets speculate about the possibility of a run on the banks in our precarious economic situation, I’m surprised we haven’t yet seen any news reports about the run that’s already underway. I’m talking about the run on gun shops that’s going on as we speak. And no, I am not joking.

Let’s face it: gun owners are not exactly “the glass is half-full”-type of folks to begin with. So when you combine a pre-existing “end is nigh” mindset with the recent economic meltdown, mix in a literal fulfillment of the Mark of the Beast prophesy the day after Obama’s election, add a dash of Obama’s dismissive comments about those who “cling to guns or religion,” and you’ve got yourself a mess of freaked out folks who are convinced they’d better get locked and loaded right quick because Armageddon’s-a-comin’, and Obama’s gonna try to ban their only real means of self-defense!

I’ve got a few friends who are gun nuts, so I usually get wind of what’s going on in the gun world. And let me tell you, I ain’t never seen anything like this before.

I was in a Big 5 sporting goods store just the other day and a guy walks in and asks the clerk if they sell handguns. When the clerk says “no,” the guy looks at us and says: “Better get your handguns quick before Obama bans ‘em.” I drove past a gun shop just the other day that was packed on a weekday during normal work hours. A buddy up in LA county who’s in the market for a pistol and shotgun tells me it’s “standing room only” in the gun shops up where he is. A brother-in-law is looking to buy a 7.62 x 39 caliber rifle (often labeled as an “assault rifle”), but they sold out just about everywhere before he could get his hands on one. The major online retailers of assault rifles are now sold out of just about everything they normally carry (see here for example), and I know of at least one major online retailer’s website that was down for two days because the unexpected surge in website traffic exceeded their bandwidth. One major online retailer of assault rifles marked up its remaining stock by 100%; an assault rifle that would have cost you $360 one day was offered at $720 the next.

This run on the gun shops, and on assault rifles in particular, has gotten me thinking again about where Mormonism stands on the whole concept of personal gun ownership in an effort to be prepared for whatever “the last days” throw our way. I know some Mormons who seem to regard gun ownership almost like a religious obligation, while others seem to have a strong religious objection to the idea.

Unsurprisingly, there are scriptures each side of the debate can cite in support of their view. The Old Testament and Book of Mormon present numerous examples of “men of God” who owned and used arms to defend themselves and others. For example, Nephi was a major manufacturer and distributor of swords in his day. (2 Ne. 5:14.) On the other hand, the people of Ammon, who chose to allow themselves to be killed rather than kill others even in self-defense are cited as an example of those who chose to live according to the “higher law.”

The New Testament does not present any examples of “righteous” uses of weaponry. To the contrary, in the one instance where someone did use a weapon in a seemingly righteous cause (Peter), Jesus rebuked him, saying: “Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.” (Matt. 26:52.) Some Christian denominations, Quakers, for example, have cited this scripture for the proposition that Christ disapproves of using violence, even for self-defense. Others cite the fact that Peter carried a sword as proof that even an Apostle of the Lord can own and carry a weapon. They explain that Christ rebuked Peter for trying to stop them from taking Jesus into captivity, not because there is anything inherently wrong with owning or using a weapon, but because Christ’s death was something that had to happen.

Early Mormon history provides some interesting examples. Although Joseph Smith originally restrained the Saints from using violence in self-defense, he rescinded that counsel when the persecutions became more severe. (The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 225.) The Nauvoo Legion, with General Joseph Smith at its head, along with legendary gun toters like Porter Rockwell and the Danites, demonstrate that early Mormons became theologically comfortable with wielding guns in their defense.

Joseph Smith even taught that it was sometimes necessary for men to take up arms because of their religious obligation to defend their families:

It may be that the Saints will have to beat their ploughs into swords, for it will not do for men to sit down patiently and see their children destroyed. (HC 6:365.)

There is one principle which is eternal; it is the duty of all men to protect their lives and the lives of the household, whenever necessity requires, and no power has a right to forbid it, should the last extreme arrive, but I anticipate no such extreme, but caution is the parent of safety. (HC 6:605.)

Or my personal favorite quote by Joseph Smith on the subject:

Peace be still, bury the hatchet and the sword, the sound of war is dreadful in my ear. [But] any man who will not fight for his wife and children is a coward and a bastard. (An American Prophet’s Record: The Diaries and Journals of Joseph Smith, p. 298.)

However, I know some Latter-day Saints who feel that gun ownership is just for the kooky fringe, and others see owning guns for self-defense as a lack of true faith. A friend of mine once said during an Elder’s Quorum lesson: “If you have true faith in God, that He will protect you, then you don’t even need to lock your doors at night. I trust that the Holy Spirit will protect my home.” On one occasion when a ward member brought up gun ownership in connection with emergency preparedness, another ward member bristled at the idea and said: “I’d rather let someone kill me and my family and steal our food storage.”

So what about you? Where do you stand on the whole gun issue? Are you one of them “praise the Lord and pass the ammunition”-types, or are you part of the “you’ll shoot your eye out” chorus? Do you prefer to rely on Messrs. Smith & Wesson or the Sword of your Faith to protect your family in an emergency situation? And have you seen any evidence of a run on gun shops going on in your neck of the woods, or is all this just crazy talk?

  • http://captainmelody.blogspot.com captainmelody

    First of all, I believe living in fear only hurts us. Those that get guns because they are scared of the world should not own a gun. With that type of paranioa I don’t think they can be trusted and will be quick to use it in incorrect situations. But I think those that are mature and feel some added protection from owning a gun should be able to. I believe there should be some heavy restrictions on gun licenses. It should be mandatory that a person take a class on gun use before ever purchasing a gun. That class would cover how to use it, how to store it, etc.

  • http://radiobeloved.wordpress.com/ Neal Davis

    Well, if you live in the right place, everyone else has a gun. If you’re on good terms, you shouldn’t have anything to worry about, even if you don’t have one yourself.

  • http://terrymaz.blogspot.com Ricercar

    I still like the old Quaker (or Ammonite, I guess) saying:

    “When Jesus said to love your enemies, I am pretty sure he meant not to kill them.”

    I certainly respect the tremendous sacrifice made by soldiers and law enforcement officers to bring peace to society; however, I am grateful they make me free to live the way I believe society will be one day: gun and violence free.

  • Banned Commenter

    I’m like the Quaker who woke up in the middle of the night hearing a burglar in his kitchen. The Quaker armed himself with his handgun, went to the kitchen, and said “Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world, but thee are standing right where I am about to shoot.”

  • Matt Thurston

    The fears gun-zealots have that Obama might ban guns pales in comparison to the fears I have of the gun-zealots themselves. I don’t get guns. Must be a sexual thing. Or maybe a small penis thing.

  • http://captainmelody.blogspot.com captainmelody

    Matt,

    I don’t think so. If that were the case I would definitely own a gun, which I do not.

  • http://terrymaz.blogspot.com Ricercar

    I am sympathetic to gun-rights advocates. The rights are there for a reason and in my opinion that reason is often justified. I have enjoyed the rare case where I can argue the culture and legality of gun ownership, after serving a mission in West Virginia and then living in Utah the arguments come naturally.

    The point is that peace and security are bought at a price by ‘rough men ready to do violence on our behalf.’ My role in life is such that I want to set an example that accepts violence in life and strives to protect peace by peaceful intelligent means: locking the door at night, supporting due process, being tough on the causes of crime: poverty / abuse / alcohol. It seems like a Christian thing to do and it is something that once I can make part of my character that other people might want to do too.

  • Yet

    This weekend we went north to pick up our daughter and bring her home for Thanksgiving. We thought we’d throw in a little Christmas shopping and visited Sportsman’s Warehouse, Cabelas, and a few other sporting goods stores, among the usual Wal-marts, etc. I’ve never seen the gun counters so busy, and this was even during the Utah-BYU (or BYU-Utah) game. Reloading supplies, ammunition, and accessories are flying off the shelves. I was lucky to pick up a couple of cases of small rifle primers.

    It reminds me somewhat of the big fuss about food storage and Y2K.

    I’m kind of conflicted about the whole thing. I’ve got guns, lots of ‘em, and I enjoy shooting them, reloading them, and just generally admiring them. But could I shoot someone that was trying to take my food storage? I really don’t think so. They’re not easily accesible anyway. Guns are stored in one safe, bolts and magazines and cylinders in another, and ammo in yet another. Safety thing, you know. Food storage and personal property is one thing, but family is another. If my wife, children, or grandchildren were threatened, no problem. I would shoot. I love the police, I trust the police, but I won’t wait for the police if personal safety is on the line.

  • Annon.

    When addressing the issue of guns and masculinity, well, that is the deep end of the pool, psychologically speaking. Honestly. I’ve never seen a Mormon present a good analysis of the issue that covers all the ethical and theological bases. It’s always presented within the trap of Mormon dualism.

  • hawkgrrrl

    Andrew – I think the people of Ammon example fails to meet the “higher law” standard. They had merely achieved their quota of murdered neighbors.

    This is the kind of thing that seems to creep out when there is fear of societal collapse. I guess I don’t object to someone owning and shooting a gun for sport. I would not want guns in my house, and I would also not want anyone specifically buying guns for protection. It just seems like a dangerous mindset to me. My personal feeling has always been that if you are going to kill a man, you should be willing to do it with your own two hands. If you are insufficiently committed to get your hands dirty, maybe it’s not such a good idea after all.

  • KingOfTexas

    I thought the people of Ammon were murders that chose to die rather than take another life. Their faith was tested .

    Banned: I like the Quaker thing. FYI I’m going to plagiarize that if I may. :)

    The Sword Faith taught me to shoot so I can help those without. It is also hard to go deer hunting with a sword… unless you have it in a car.

  • The Green Man

    Did every single man, woman and child of the Ammonite ‘murder’ – or were they sorry to have been acquiescent to unjust beliefs?

    I am inclined to believe the latter.

    Hawkgrrrl – I couldn’t help but think of Fezik’s comments in the Princess Bride to the effect that people should try and kill each other as God intended: with their bare hands.

  • Alpha Echo

    “Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!”
    Seriously, as long as there is room for both those who want to have guns and those who don’t want to have guns, I think we are okay.

  • Andrew Ainsworth

    Annon. (#9), you should write a good analysis and we’ll post it here.

  • Matt Thurston

    Funny, captainmelody.

    To any gun lovers out there… I was being sarcastic.

    (You know, because I don’t want to get my head blown off.)
    :)

  • http://bloggernacleburner.wordpress.com bloggernacleburner

    Well just think about it. The Chosen One took names, kicked some butt, invaded like crazy and managed to destroy all those handy constitutional safeguards that the gun nuts depend on.

    Then he hands the reigns off to the ‘Craaaaziest Sooocialst EEEEVAAA!’. Who is a little strong in the color department if you know how they think.

    I’d suggest a quick skim of The Turner Diaries. Conundrum solved.

  • Annon.

    Andrew #14- my #9 comment was not meant as a criticism of your post. Sorry if it came across that way.

  • Andrew Ainsworth

    Annon., no worries, and no offense was taken. I was honestly offering to post something on the topic if you think there are other issues/concerns/angles, etc. that should be covered. The offer still stands. :)

  • KingOfTexas

    Wasn’t it in the Words of Wisdom; “Thou shall not get thy self shot to pieces.” ?

    Green man – Did every single man, woman and child of the Ammonite ‘murder’ – or were they sorry to have been acquiescent to unjust beliefs?

    No 3year olds were jacking horses and killing old women. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/24/12-19#12

  • Ann

    I have suicidal tendencies sometimes, so owning a gun is a very bad idea for me. I have no objection to others owning guns, but living near the city with the third highest murder rate in the world (behind Caracas, Venezuela and Capetown, South Africa) does make me think that more guns is not a solution to anything.

  • Rico

    We don’t have guns on sale in England like you have in the states so i have to admit this is a bit scary form me and i don’t even live near any of you. I am always sceptical of the arguments that are used to defend owning a gun primarily because when i was in the states last some friends took me shooting with a variety of firearms and it was fun!! I loved it! I still keep the empty casings of bullets i was able to shoot targets with. But this is the part that scares me, it is fun to shoot stuff and perhaps this misses the point but then is it really about protection or is it about masculinity, testosterone and adrenaline and if it is then will that really lead to increased safety, I wonder?

  • JohnL

    Maybe, just maybe, if these folks had the slightest understanding of how our government works, they would know the president can’t unilaterally ban handguns no matter how much he might want to. Just thinking of these nitwits running around with guns causes me to stay awake at night.

  • Bookslinger

    #21, just a historical tidbit: England had banned the private ownership of firearms (or was it just handguns) after World War 1.

    When World War 2 broke out, England had to beg people in the United States and Canada to donate personally owned firearms to give to the citizens of Britain for defense in case England was invaded.

  • frankg

    I don’t trust the government to protect me 24/7. I’ve heard of court cases alleging police mishandling a call (arriving too late or not finding the victims calling for help at all) dismissed with the statement something like: the police are not required to protect you. My greatest fear is liberals prefer to manage crime, not solve it. Past initiatives (one in Virginia, some years ago, again don’t remember when) targeted repeat offenders and those who used guns in crimes, and used longer sentences, and lo and behold, gun crimes in those areas went down quite a bit. But that may run counter to some agendas, or require prisons. The bare hands approach has a problem thowgh…some criminals have no problem savagely beating elderly people during home invasion/robberies. If an elderly person can handle a gun, now how and when to use it, I say okay. Plus, if you think you can (unarmed) handle a 250 pound intruder who smashes through your door/window and is armed with a knife, fine. I just don’t want someone else deciding that for me. I would want to be able to consider everything up to and including lethal force. Got to run…

  • Jeff Spector

    My observation is that real hard core wacky right wingers are so traumatized that the people of the US didn’t give in to the fear mongering and elected a smart, well spoken minority as President that the only reaction was to feed their gun fetish and claim they have to protect themselves against the Apocalypse that will likely happen as a result.

    Sort of a kin to a middle life crisis that some men have. :)

  • http://www.internet-grocer.net/product.html Bruce Hopkins

    I sent an email to 4,800 of my subscribers asking what they were doing with *their* money, and answers came back overwhelmingly: Buying guns and ammo. Three gunshop owners also replied that they were having trouble keeping ammo in stock. They also said their wholesalers were backordered 25,000 for certain weapons.

    When the incoming Marxist regime begins (further) strangling our Republic, I wonder how many of these gun-buyers will *use* them, a la 1776. I don’t think we really have the stomach for it anymore.

    FOOD is an important thing to stock now, too. http://www.internet-grocer.net/product.html

  • Jeff Spector

    Wow, I didn’t think my observation would bear fruit so quickly.

  • Bryan H.

    #25

    So true! You’ve got to wonder what all the “hard core wacky right wingers” have to worry about. It’s not like the “smart, well spoken minority” egregiously flip-flopped on a watershed Second Amendment case in the middle of a campaign or anything –OH SNAP.

  • Hawkgrrrl

    Bookslinger: “#21, just a historical tidbit: England had banned the private ownership of firearms (or was it just handguns) after World War 1.” If they had banned them 200 years earlier, we’d all have bad teeth, call each other “guvn’r” and say “pip, pip, cheerio!” (No offense to the Brits out there) :)

    frankg: “The bare hands approach has a problem though…some criminals have no problem savagely beating elderly people during home invasion/robberies. If an elderly person can handle a gun, now how and when to use it, I say okay.” Sounds great in theory, but I’m more nervous about an elderly person with a handgun than I am about roaming gangs of bare-handed killers robbing homes. The best protection for the elderly is living in a gated community, not vigilante justice. Look, if someone has a mind to kill you, you’re a goner. That’s the nature of life. It’s temporary.

  • Mo Betta

    Bruce (26) said: “When the incoming Marxist regime begins (further) strangling our Republic, I wonder how many of these gun-buyers will *use* them, a la 1776.”

    This reminds me of something a work colleague always used to say: “If there ever is another American Civil War, it will be a short one, because the conservatives believe in owning guns, but the liberals don’t.”

  • Hawkgrrrl

    Mo Betta – “This reminds me of something a work colleague always used to say: “If there ever is another American Civil War, it will be a short one, because the conservatives believe in owning guns, but the liberals don’t.”” I’m pretty sure this should be embroidered on a pillow somewhere.

  • James

    29 Hawkgrrrl

    “If they had banned them 200 years earlier, we’d all have bad teeth, call each other “guvn’r” and say “pip, pip, cheerio!” (No offense to the Brits out there)”

    No offense taken!!

  • mac

    Re: having faith and not locking doors

    Isn’t there a Kenny Rogers song that says, “I trust in God, but lock my doors.”

    In southern CA a young member of our stake was arrested for burglary. Turns out that he would go up to a house and ring the bell. If someone came to the door, he’d ask directions or something and leave. If no one answered, he would try the door. If it was locked he would go on. If it were unlocked, he’d go in and rob the house.

    The Stake President actually told this story in conference and said, “Brothers and Sisters, lock your doors.”

    Guns. Got ‘em. Only a couple of .22 caliber. A friend of mine, however, was relieved from jury duty (a gun-related parole violation) due to this exchange:
    Attorney: “Do you own any guns.”
    MJ: “Yes.”
    Attorney: “How many?”
    MJ: “Well, 12 or 13. Maybe 14.”

  • observer

    Hmmm…. I think our President elect hit it on the nose when he suggested that in times of fear, people cling to their guns and their religion.

    I don’t think that you can legitimately claim to live a faithful life and walk a “God like” path and believe that taking a life is a right. Shooting someone is a heinous act no matter how justified you feel in the commission of the act. It is an ugly, horrible,traumatizing act for everyone involved.

    Shouldn’t we all be working toward creating a society where no one should ever feel it necessary to pump someone full of bullet? Shouldn’t we be working to address the fear, racism and propensity for violence that is compelling people to purchase guns at such alarming rates?

    #22 you are right the Supreme Court just handed down a ruling in April 08 (Heller vs District of Columbia)that supports an individuals right to own a gun. Only reasonable restrictions can be imposed. It seems that people don’t really want to know the truth. They just want to know that which supports their fears and often stunted viewpoints.

    I know that God wants better for us than living in such a state of fear and paranoia that taking a life is our best and only solution.

  • http://www.libertypages.com/cgw Clark

    if these folks had the slightest understanding of how our government works, they would know the president can’t unilaterally ban handguns no matter how much he might want to.

    I think these guys have a very good understanding of how government works and recognize that a sitting President with large majorities in both the Senate and House of the same party can get gun laws passed. When you combine this with the “leak” of a policy platform on his website last month and past stated desire to seriously restrict guns I think some concerns are pretty valid.

    That said I’m not sure Obama would do this. I think he remembers that one of the main driving factors of Republican gains in the 90′s was the gun right issue. There were a lot of people upset who weren’t even gun owners.

    While I think the reaction is an overreaction I think there are rational reasons to worry that at a minimum more gun control is likely. So get them now before the regulations come into effect.

    That said I’ve also seen statistics that the claim there is this run on guns is pretty exaggerated and that current gun sales are within normal statistical variation.

  • http://www.libertypages.com/cgw Clark

    I don’t think that you can legitimately claim to live a faithful life and walk a “God like” path and believe that taking a life is a right. Shooting someone is a heinous act no matter how justified you feel in the commission of the act. It is an ugly, horrible,traumatizing act for everyone involved.

    Shouldn’t we all be working toward creating a society where no one should ever feel it necessary to pump someone full of bullet? Shouldn’t we be working to address the fear, racism and propensity for violence that is compelling people to purchase guns at such alarming rates?

    Well I think your #1 will have trouble with the Book of Mormon where there were quite a few prophets set forth as types to emulate who engaged in violence. (Mormon and Moroni being pretty good examples not to mention Ammon)

    As for your latter point I do think we ought make a peaceful land. However acting as if utopia is here when it isn’t is quite silly. Also realize that there are large swaths of America where the police are very, very far away. It’s not like you are in downtown SLC and a cop car is at best 5 minutes away. In some places you have a few cops covering a very large county.

  • Cicero

    I’m with the Prophet:

    “I anticipate no such extreme, but caution is the parent of safety.”

    On a more philosophical point, a gun is a weapon that benefits the physically weak. An armed citizenry is, in my opinion, more likely to generate restraint and encourage peaceful resolutions to disagreements. A disarmed population presents a far greater temptation for those who have strength and power to impose their will as the likelihood of effective opposition is much lower.

    A total ban of guns also shows a worrisome loss of community trust. A community based on trust views armed members of your community as a comfort, because you trust these members of your community to use their weapons justly, and usually in a manner benefiting the community. (Defending against enemies foreign and domestic). In such a community you would expect criminals to banned from owning weapons, but not law abiding citizens.

    Most of the arguments in favor of gun control are based on the idea that you should not trust your neighbor. (Instead you should trust your government). This is probably why gun owners can become so emotional over the issue, as nobody likes it when someone informs them that they are considered untrustworthy- especially when they have taken no action to deserve such mistrust.

  • observer

    If you really believe that your life and the lives of the people you love are in imminent danger and there is no hopes of getting assistance from trained professionals, then have a gun. But, own a gun clear in the understanding that there are imminent risks inherent in having a gun in your home around the ones you love. Suicides account for well over 50% of gun deaths in this country. Throw in accidental shootings and the number of shootings that occur between family members (family violence) and you have accounted for a vast majority of the gun deaths that occur in this country.

    The incidence of a life threatening home invasion, which seems to be what most fear, is much less likely to be the cause of a gun death. There were fewer that 154 reported cases, in the country, of justifiable homicide in 2006. These are the hard cold facts. Check the Centers For Disease Control national statistics! But, most would rather be lured into this sense of paralyzing fear to justify their actions.

    These are the facts:
    1) You have a consitutionally protected right to own a gun ( Heller VS District of Columbia). Noone is coming for your guns!

    2) The risk of suicide is five times greater in households with guns. Accounting for over 50% of gun deaths.

    3)When medical costs, loss of productivity, mental health treatment, rehabilitation, legal and judicial costs are figured in, gun violence costs the US over $100 billion annually.

    4) We are losing close to 30,000 people a year to firearm related injury, 30,000! This is more than 5 industrialized foriegn nations COMBINED. Enough is enough!

    If tainted lettuce were the cause of this many deaths, we as a country would be outraged! And would have pulled every head of lettuce off of every produce shelf in the country in a matter of days.

    This is not a question of imminent safety in our homes. This is a question of what kind of society we are willing to live in, to raise our children in? At some point we have to choose between living in a gun slinging, shoot to kill, fearful wild,wild west. Or CHOOSE to build a vision of the “Divine Kingdom” a safe community were everyone can operate with a sense of safety and well being. Which would God Choose for us? Which would you choose for yourself and the ones you love?

  • KingOfTexas

    Why is it that everybody that is anti-gun thinks owning a gun equates to fear and paranoia. When I go to sleep at night when it’s cool I leave the doors open. I don’t lock the doors when I am at home.
    I did cathc a one burglar and only shot at three people. I did it like the French. “I shot in their general direction.” (Sorry I can’t write with a French accent.) Owning a gun is like food storage. I hope I never have to use it but if I do I don’t others to suffer because I wasn’t prepaired.
    The burglary was at someone else’s house.

  • norcal_t

    Wow, the paranoia of those who don’t own guns is worse than those who do. Never would have figured that.

  • James

    Stealth fighters, nuclear subs, heat seeking missiles etc. all have superseded the needs of guns to protect us from forieng invasion.

    I think we as a nation have lost sight why we have the right to bare arms it was to protect us originally from the British it was never intended at least in my view to be a weapon to protect us from each other and as 38 observer has pointed out a way for 50% to take their lives.

    The constitution is so sacred to the members of the church that they can’t see arms now are Stealth fighters, nuclear subs, heat seeking missiles and that if the forefathers were alive today they would tell us these are the arms to protect us now and we don’t need the others which are killing us from within.

  • Imperfection

    Raw data: Your family is safer in a home WITHOUT a loaded gun in it (ready to repel a home invasion). If you have guns for sport they are LOCKED away.

    In the case of a foriegn invasion that had the ability to overwhelm our own defenses your personal firearms would be useless.

    In the case of our own army turning against the population, again, your personal firarms would be useless.

    The idea that should be challenged *by the gun rights folks* is that you need a personal firearm for safety. In our society it is a dangerous myth.

  • KingOfTexas

    Riots from Haiti to Bangladesh to Egypt over the soaring costs of basic foods. Detroit Riot of 1967, Los Angeles riot in spring of 1992, even the hurricane in Louisiana where police were useless. I guess they should have sent the Army In armed. Oh, that is unconstitutional.
    Imperfection you and James are the reason most people don’t get involved when someone is being raped or beaten. Yes; I will still help you so next time you are beaten or raped look me up in Texas.

  • Imperfection

    King, what are you talking about?

    Neither I, nor from what I have read, James, is advocating taking away your guns. What I would like to see is more sanity and less fear mongering.

    But hey, fear sells guns.

  • Jeff Spector

    It never fails. Any discussion about guns brings out the gun-loving wackos, who live in constant fear that the “Man” will show up and take their guns. Hasn’t happened yet, the courts uphold the broad interpretation of the 2nd amendment. And still they are up all night cowering in the corner, guns locked and loaded, waiting…..

    Hope you get some rest over this Thanksgiving (Thanks, that is, to guns) holiday. BTW, don’t shoot the turkey, it’s already dead. :)

  • Cicero

    And once again the conservatives show that they understood the mentality of liberals, (guns kill people, guns aren’t safe, therefor people should not own guns), but the liberals show they have no clue as to what is really going on in the heads of conservatives, and so instead entertain us with various strawmen.

  • frankg

    Hawkgrll,
    Shooting an intruder in your home who is coming at you with a knife is not vigilante justice. It is self defense.
    Now, if they were running away with my stereo and I shot them in the back, that’s vigilante justice. Or worse.
    Gated communities/assisted living with security perhaps, sounds like an interesting option.
    observer,
    People who use guns to confront criminals often don’t kill them. They frighten them off, detain them until police arrive. There are very numerous incidents of this nature. estimates range in the 100,000s to a million per year. Don’t know which is most accurate.
    How much of all this gun crime is caused by repeat offenders? I fear politicians will have a problem with committing convicted gun offenders to longer sentences or building more prisons.

  • Wyoming

    Who said – when mores are sufficient, laws are unnecessary, when mores are insufficient – laws are unenforceable. I believe every home in our community has 3-5 guns. It is a remarkably safe place, not necessarily because of the guns, but the community mores are grounded in peace and cooperation.

  • GeorgeGT

    I have a state provided concealed weapons permit. I’ve been trained, any my family has been trained.
    Several .22 cal rifles and pistols
    1 short barrel 12 guage
    Glock 17 9mm
    Browning Hi-Power 9mm
    Looking for what I’m going to get next.

    So…. No… I see nothing wrong with owning guns. I’m not going to out and get an assault rifle. This type of weapon is more for an all out battle type of thing that I tend to do with paint-balls. For the life of me, I can’t imagine the situation that would find myself out on the street repelling a bunch of invading hordes.
    What I’ve been taught on is travel and home defense. If I find someone being attacked, if I witness something happening on a roadway, or if I find my home occupied when I return, or during the night. I feel that I could and would defend my turf.

    Justified by scripture??? What difference will that make if someone is attacking my family and I have the ability to stop them? I’ll make a difference. Some may argue that it may be negative, but at least I’ll make a difference. And I PRAY that I’ll never ever be put in the position of using any weapon against another person.

  • KingOfTexas

    James Our right to bear arms was put into the constitution to protect us from our government not the Brits.

    GeorgeGT My wife bought a Desert Eagle .50 because she saw it in two Glock because it was used in the X Files. Sometimes that girl scares me. :)

  • Dick Richards

    GeorgeGT

    I got one of the Browning 9mm. I like to pepper them damn raccoons that keep gettin in my trash. Hey, if you ever down in Texas, we should go shootin.

    James- you need to take of them girl pants and put on some camo and go shootin with us. You ain’t a man until you shot an animal bigger than you. Now that’s what I call American!

  • Nazenail

    I’m late to the party as usual.

  • Nazenail

    Sorry..

    #41 & #42 James and Imperfection-

    The 2nd Ammendement was to protect against our own government turning on us, not as a defense against foreign invaders.

    Nukes, Stealth aircraft, and Subs won’t make any difference. They can’t use those against Kansas City, Los Angeles, Dallas, or Atlanta. They would need a ground force. Look at what the rebels in Iraq have been able to do for five years. Now imagine the governement trying to do the same thing against Arizona, Colorado, Utah, or Texas.

    I’ve only got:

    Two Glock 23′s .40 S&W
    New England BA 20 Guage
    Remington Urban Pump Semi Auto 12 Guage
    Remington 700 .308 w/ Zeis

    Why do I have them? Hunting for sport. Hunting for food (food storage). Family protection. Inflationary hedge. Trading materials in emergency times. (along with my gold and silver)

  • Jim

    #42
    In the case of a foriegn invasion that had the ability to overwhelm our own defenses your personal firearms would be useless.

    Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto (Japanese General) – WW2 era quotes
    “In the first six to twelve months of a war with the United States and Great Britain I will run wild and win victory upon victory. But then, if the war continues after that, I have no expectation of success.”
    “You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass.”

    Probably most well known for the following quote:
    “I fear all we have done is awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve.” (Post Pearl Harbor)

    ———————–

    #42 still
    “In the case of our own army turning against the population, again, your personal firarms would be useless.”

    Afghanistan, and Iraq are a perfect current example of a relatively small group of people wreaking havoc on a modern, sophisticated army. All done with nothing more than small arms and “Improvised Explosive Devices”. If you figure that roughly half of Americans (or more) live in a home which has firearms, if things become too broken, the people have the ultimate power to correct the problem.

    The problem with people is sin. Something you’ll never get away from, a perfect Utopia will never exist. In my opinion an armed population is another of the checks and balances the founding fathers intended our country to have. It’s sad that thing have to be that way, but you can’t eliminate sin.

    The church advises you to have a years worth of food stores… A persons fear and paranoia should not exceed the level of disaster requiring a person to feed themselves from shelf stock for a full year. :)

  • http://mormonmatters.org/2008/01/13/10-things-every-mormon-needs-to-know/ Andrew Ainsworth

    Just remember you heard it here first, folks. News outlets have now begun to report on the boom in gun sales: http://cbs2chicago.com/politics/gun.sales.election.2.879513.html

  • Shederlaomach

    There are few subjects more emotionally charged than that of firearms. The figure given of 30,000 gun deaths per year is extremely deceptive. Some 18,000 of those deaths are suicides. People who wish to kill themselves will find a way to do so. Guns are just the tool. Also included are all shootings by law enforcement personnel and justified shootings by private citizens. That accounts for some 600 deaths per year. Most of the rest of the shootings involve gangs and drugs. It is a problem that is tragic and needs to be resolved, but the facts do not sustain the assertion that law-abiding citizens who merely own a gun are either inherently evil or placing themselves and their loved ones or society in general in danger. In fact, with increased gun safety and training, accidental shootings are being less common. Personally, I own several guns and would use them to defend my family. Hawkgrrl’s assertion that old people would be safer inside a gated community than armed with a gun might be true, but many of us can’t afford to live in gated communities and have to rely on Smith and Wesson instead of Brink’s or other private security for our personal security.

  • KingOfTexas

    I think since 50% of all marriages end in divorce and only 6% of temple marriages end in divorce … marriage should be against the law unless you have a temple recommend.
    We could do that with guns too. :)

  • http://thahandofgod.blogspot.com/ KingOfTexas

    I was just checking back to see if anyone wrote about me… HEY! Maybe I am a paranoid gun wacko. ;)

  • Chet

    Lock cocked and ready to rock when spirit says, just like Mormon and Moroni!

  • curtis

    In Utah the carrying of weapons in churches is protected by law. Unless the particular church seeks an exemption. I find it interesting that the ONLY church registered for an exemption in Utah is the LDS church. They do not allow guns on church property and ask members to refrain from bringing them. Is this an indication of the church’s stance on gun control?

    • Dan

      It may be that the Saints will have to beat their ploughs into swords, for it will not do for men to sit down patiently and see their children destroyed. (HC 6:365.)

      There is one principle which is eternal; it is the duty of all men to protect their lives and the lives of the household, whenever necessity requires, and no power has a right to forbid it, should the last extreme arrive, but I anticipate no such extreme, but caution is the parent of safety. (HC 6:605.)

      Joseph Smith on the subject:

      Peace be still, bury the hatchet and the sword, the sound of war is dreadful in my ear. [But] any man who will not fight for his wife and children is a coward and a bastard. (An American Prophet’s Record: The Diaries and Journals of Joseph Smith, p. 298.

  • Dan

    Guns, what guns? They have been bought up. I suspect not only by current gun owners, but more importantly bu new gun owners, people who feel their constitutional rights are being cut to death one small cut at a time.