To be blunt:

Allow God to create you – and give up the illusion that you are on equal
footing with god.

Why, psychologically, might you want to prevent god from having created you?

Logically, how can you exist as a spirit ‘child’ without having been somehow created?

I admit ignorance of morman apologetics around this issue ..
and apologise for not reflecting this in my questions here given the host of this discussion.

Orthodox theology of the Logos / Kalimat / word of god and Genesis interpretation (and your own comparitive morman study) might assist you in your walk.

“Christ the Eternal Kalimat”

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/byantoro

and a heavy dose of reading abnormal psychology (viewing it through the lens of an alternate theology)

Was most helpful for me overcoming (or perhaps more correctly starting to overcome) my own subconcious delusions of divine equality and associated demonic possesion.

(Yes – these terms are scary – but take them with an grain of Mysterion
and literal allegory, dont beat yourself up, hold fast to righteousness
and they will be more palatable livid, and accurate – and you will find the means to express them without sounding like a raving lunatic, as hopefully I have done here by making this aside)

Side note – the priest in that podcast, as an islamic convert to christianity living in indonesia, and essentially the founder of the orthodox church in indonesia must by nature of these facts literally  walk in the shadow of murder daily, may his witness ever be  strengthened by these facts. May we all as followers of christ pray for his health and eternal protection.

Lastly -

…

“This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time,’ declares the LORD.
   ’I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I
will be their God, and they will be my people’” (Jer. 31:33).

…

So with this, and the similar teachings of st paul concerning the application of the mosaic law (viz. Corinthians &c) in mind -

If your mind and heart are not as one – you have clearly not yet found your covenant. Orthodox teachings concerning the jesus prayer the noetic struggle of the inner life eg. the philokalia &c. may be of assistance to you here

Again – my sincere apologies to our host for not attempting to explain or balance the above with the mormon perspective. May god forgive me in my innumerable shortcomings, and provide a valid mormon answer to this post so that with proper reflection and prayer – mindful of the evils of scylla and charbidis – the grace of the all holy spirit might provide a True and balanced compass for your direction.

in christ

- Chris

One thing that I didn’t see anyone mention was the matter of the icon (portrait) at the entrance to the church.  Usually that will either be an icon of the patron saint of the parish, or occasionally an icon of the saint or event which is being commemorated that day – so it was probably an icon of either St. Paul or St. Andrew.  If you’re familiar with traditional iconography you can often recognize them from the symbols present in the icon, but if you’re not, most icons have the name of the saint or the event written on them.  Some are in English, but most are in Greek or Coptic or Slavonic or some other Eastern language, and even if you know those languages the writing is often very stylized and difficult to read.

Also, the lighting of the candles is symbolic of prayers offered.

Peace,

One cannot fully understand Orthodoxy by looking it up on google. It requires going to the Divine Liturgy to learn about it. One learns about Orthodoxy through experience.

As an Orthodox Christian myself, I find it extraordinarily disrespectful that your LDS missionaries would dare set foot in Orthodox countries and try and convert Orthodox Christians who have been intensly persecuted for many decades by communist regimes and Muslims. Nearly 100 million Orthodox Christians have been slaughtered in the 20th century alone. We are still the most persecuted Christian community by far today. Orthodox Christians would live in instense persecution and here come you American LDS missionaries who have sat in the comfort that has been granted by the religious freedom and religious toleration that Americans enjoy and then come to preach your “gospel” to these people who have suffered for Christ for the past 80 years or so. How anyone could see that is okay is beyond me. It is extraordinarily un-Christian for you to come an try to convert these Orthodox Christians who have been persecuted their whole lives to whatever.

I see your posting is two years old.  I wonder how you resolved your questions in
the meanwhile. I hope all is well.

I just wanted to make a remark about your concern about the
veneration of icons in the ancient Orthodox Christian practice. When Western
Christians first see this, it can be confusing or even shocking. But it truly has
nothing to do with the “worship of images”. There is an excellent treatment of
this from the Orthodox point of view which can be found by Googling “the icon FAQ”.  Interesting reading on all aspects
of this issue.

But more directly, can I tell you how it feels when I
venerate an icon – what it is I’m doing?  I emphasize that this is just little old me
talking here. But – when I venerate an icon of Christ, I am physically
expressing my love for my Lord and Saviour. I know that the wood and paint is
not Christ – not God.  I don’t worship
the wood and paint. I would consider a claim by someone else that I was “worshiping”
that image – that painting – as highly upsetting, totally off-base, ignorant and
scandalous. Yet I would understand how – as a Jew or Muslim or Protestant
Christian – they might come to that conclusion.

I don’t know how to say this quickly or easily, but – God
became fully human, fully physical, in the person of Jesus Christ – while remaining
fully God. By condescending to share humanity and physicality with His beloved children,
God acquired a human face and body – the face and body of Jesus. That is the
act that has given us “permission” to make an image of Him. Just as you and I have human faces, and we can have a photo made of us, Jesus’
beautiful physical countenance can be painted.

And just as I might gaze upon a photograph of my wife or my
kids or my mother, and make a very human, physical gesture of love by kissing
that photograph in their absence, I KNOW I am not truly kissing my wife when I
kiss the photo. And I know I’m not truly kissing Jesus when I kiss an image of
Him. Yet I DO kiss the icon as if I were kissing Christ – it would be unthinkable
for me to kiss Him directly on the face, perhaps only on the hem of His clothing,
or on His foot.

The kiss is a gesture of love that God has given us to help
express love in a physical way. I give this gift of a kiss back to Christ (and
to His mother, and to my elder brothers and sisters in Christ the saints)
because I love Him so much, and I so want to be able to see Him and speak with
Him. I speak with Him all the time, but I can’t see Him or kiss Him directly at
this time in my life, or in my present spiritual state. So I kiss or make a
movement of veneration before His icon, as a physical expression of the emotion
of love, and of desire to give honor. I mean for this gesture not to be given
to the icon itself, but to the real person which it portrays. I intend for my
kiss to “pass through” the icon and to reach the object of my love, who I know
is constantly with me and in all places, filling all creation.

This gesture of love, being physical, is natural to that
important, God-given physical aspect of my humanity. Eastern Christianity
recognizes and values our physical nature along with the spiritual and
intellectual, and uses it to make our striving toward God more complete, more
fully human. We rejoice in the smell of incense and basil, rosewater and
flowers.  We taste the Holy Eucharist. We
delight in the music and sound of worship, and in the physical movements of our
bodies as we bow down before Christ, or make the sign of His cross. The wisdom
of the Church is manifest in the profound, concrete way that these physical expressions
reinforce, confirm and amplify the spiritual and intellectual expressions of our
worship and love. I have to emphasize this – to me, kissing an icon feels so “right”
and natural, as if my love is more integrated and whole, into “Ortho-Doxy” – correct,
true worship and belief.

And with that I have rambled on for far too long, and far
too clumsily.  Blessings to you, dear
Adeline. All the best. And thanks for even caring about such issues.
 

As a Greek Orthodox Christian, I was so touched that you visited one of our temples, then wrote about it with kindness and sympathy. Thank you for having the courage to stay during Orthros after finding yourself one of only a handful of attendees. You must be a  US Marine!

Then there was the comment about not entering down the center aisle!  Don’t give the least thought to your “rookie mistake”, which many (most?) “cradle” Orthodox wouldn’t even have noticed. Those who might have noticed would totally have understood. The Church is ancient, infinitely spacious and rich and complex. It can be quite forbidding to those who are unfamiliar with its “trappings”.  Yet the Church is wholly personal and intimate at the same time.  The temple is our home – our “living room” where we come together to worship our Creator and Saviour, the loving source of life. Ultimately, all you need to do is to learn to love God with an intense, true, humble love, and to seek to love His creatures and His creation – including your enemies – as closely as you can to the way He does. (Oh, is that all?)

As for “the Sanctuary’s enormous space …. which is humbling and invokes a sense of reverence” – the smallest  of temples can invoke the same. I recall particularly a hermit’s little chapel in his hut on Mt. Athos – filled with light and love and pure joy. And a tiny stone chapel on an otherwise empty rock in the Aegean, which I swam to from our dive boat during a rest break. Middle of nowhere … no other boat had been there all morning. Yet the candles were burning brightly, and the rich icons of our Lord, His Mother, and my elder brothers and sisters in Christ were glowing with a beautiful golden light. I stood in bare feet dripping water on the rock floor and gave thanks to God for my life, and my loved ones, and His exquisite creation.

Again, thank you.  May God bless you and yours, and all His children in the LDS faith.

Actually, Roman Catholicism does still teach theosis… even today as evidenced by paragraph 460 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (published 1993):

“The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”
(2 Pt 1:4): “For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God
became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the
Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” (St.
Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. 3, 19, 1: PG 7/1, 939) “For the Son of God
became man so that we might become God.” (St. Athanasius, De inc. 54, 3:
PG 25, 192B) “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers
in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make
men gods.” (St. Thomas Aquinas, Opusc. 57, 1-4)”

Furthermore, the Collect (Opening Prayer) from the Christmas liturgy of the Roman Catholic Church makes this very clear:

“O God, who wonderfully created the dignity of human nature and
still more wonderfully restored it, grant, we pray, that we may share in
the divinity of Christ, who humbled himself to share in our humanity.”

For more information on theosis/divinization/deification from a Roman Catholic perspective, please refer to this article by Carl Olson:
http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2008/colson_theosis_dec08.asp

I am a Byzantine Catholic (Similar to the Orthodox Church) who grew up with a Russian Orthodox father, and married a Mormon man and into a large Mormon family. I have been to the Mormon church more than the Catholic church since I moved to AZ. But my husband has attended some liturgies with me. During a liturgy that I had attended at a newly discovered Byzantine Church, the father had opened his gospel with this quote. It was a glorious moment given to my husband and myself (at the time pregnant). Regardless of how you celebrate the glory of Christ, it’s a celebration indeed no matter what church we followed.

After the birth of my son, we was baptized in the Byzantine Rite, and given a blessing in the LDS church. My in-laws (strict LDS Members) attended his baptism, and my parents attended the blessing.

I would love to thank the author of this article to write without judgement and truly embody the Reverence, atmosphere, and presence of God during the Matins.

For LDS Members that are interested in attending a Sunday Liturgy, often they will conduct services on Saturdays as not to interfere with Sacrament Meetings. 

Peace Be With you!

I also toured the Temple Square area, including its visitor centers and Church History museum.  Here though is where I felt tremendous conflict, and a sense of sorrow.  For I believe that while the Morman people have many outstanding qualities, and are serving Christ as they know him, they are in fact not representing the true faith, the true church on earth.

The Orthodox Church traces its roots to Pentecost, when we believe the “one, holy, universal Church” was established.  This faith, was revealed by Christ through his Crucifixion and Glorification.  For us, the Cross means everything.  After the Cross, nothing more needed to be done, nothing more needed to be revealed…everything had been fulfilled, everything had been accomplished (e.g. “It is finished.”).  Through the centuries, the Church has faced many apostasies, scandals, and persecution, but it has ultimately prevailed in its defense of the truths about who God is and our relationship to him.  The faith, does not change, but how people come to know it may evolve over time.  This faith, handed down to the Apostles through the Holy Spirit, could never be “lost”.

For more information on the theology of the Orthodox Church, I would recommend readings and podcasts from Father Thomos Hopko, who can be found on Ancient Faith Radio (ancientfaith.com).

I am a lapsed Mormon investigating the EOC. It is a beautiful and mysterious religion for which I have a great deal of respect. There has been a noticeable trend of people converting to the EOC from all walks of life, including Mormonism. 

I have noticed that many Mormons converting to the EOC did/do not have a deep understanding of Mormon doctrine and belief. They are often individuals who left before adulthood or were scared away by the skeletons in the closet of Mormonism. I am not trying to knock those leaving and taking a spiritual path elsewhere. I see this as dangerous, given every religion has its fires that need putting out. 

I am not trying to knock those taking a different spiritual path. I am considering it myself. However I think it is important that individuals have a good knowledge of what they are getting into and abandoning.

1) I am an Orthodox Christian and I thought this blog was very well written and very respectful of my faith.

2) The pictures are called icons, not mosaics.

3) Unfortunately Matins (or Orthros as it is sometimes called) is oft times not well attended. Many people will just show up for the Liturgy which follows Orthros immediately. The church where I converted to Orthodoxy was like how you described with very few people in attendance during Orthros and more people coming in the closer it got to Communion. However, some parishes are not like this; at the church I attend now, if you want a good seat (or a seat at all) you had better show up for Orthros!

4) Wow! Actual pews! Both churches I have attended have seats in rows, but pews are a rarity. The church my brother went to in Chicago, and the one he attends now in VA, had no pews and seats only along the sides.

Lastly, Lord have mercy on me, a sinner.

I do belong to the British Orthodox Church which belongs to the Coptic Patriarchade which was founded in Alexandria by Mark the Evangelist in 58 AD, so I’m actually a Coptic Orthodox, my wife who is a Russian national ( and an ex-LDS as well) is a Russian Orthodox by birth but she is accepted in my Coptic church for all sacraments as any other Coptic is. The differences between Oriental Orthodoxes and Eastern Orthodoxes are minimal, and they share the same faith in unity and accept eachothers for the sacrament of the Eucharist but none of the Orthodox branches shares in unity of faith with the Catholics.

Yes it’s a very spiritual experience. What made me join the Coptic Orthodox church was just a geographical matter since there was not other Orthodox Churches close by. But I do like the Greek Orthdox service alot and in particular the byzantine chants, but apart from that the faith is the same in any Orthodox church and has been like that for 2000 years.

Thanks for your post.

At this time, I feel like, maybe I am closer to the truth than I thought. I am 50/50 about the LDS church and the Orthodox church. They are both good and of Christ, I know this. The LDS church believes that the power of the Holy Ghosts influences other people in other churches too, so their doctrines are not completely false; and the Orthodox Church teaches the same about the Holy Spirit providing truth that compasses toward the direction Christ in other people too and says that other churches are not completely false too. Which is awesome. I was considering a visit to an Orthodox liturgy service this morning but I chickened out–I mean, the service time, it conflicts with my church time.

I am probably under surveillance by my ward and stake leaders right now for causing so much ‘drama’ in the church, haha. I am not “falling away” from the church. I think I am just going through “a phase” right now. However, I am beginning to develop a kind of appreciation for the church these days, but at the same time I am beginning to feel a kind of resentment toward the attitude shown by fellow ward members even by the littlest things. It’s a blessing and a curse. I have been praying and reading my scriptures more than I have been in my life these days. Most unfortunately, however, I think I have stopped feeling the Spirit in church meetings, especially in Sacrament. I get extremely ticked off when people at the back pew start whispering things when I am trying appreciate the hymns; I get this raging boil inside due to the lack of reverence in the most sacred time that I can only have in my week (the only reason I came to church for: to feel the spirit in the heart of worship). But I couldn’t shut my mind off from being so sensitive to these things lately and I am finding them to be highly distracting, and they do not have the spirit of respecting this most holy and sacred time of the week. In short: I love the ward members as Christ would love them, I love the church; but hate the attitude of the people, and I absolutely hate the culture.

Anyway, I don’t know where I am going with this anymore. I probably regret what I wrote here later. But I have doubts about the Orthodox Church too. The attitude shown by members of the Orthodox Church rubbed me the wrong way sometimes too (see: #40). I don’t know what Orthodox people are like culturally, so I may have my biases which is inclined to being pro-LDS in the end. The iconostatis thing kind of freak me out though; I have pictures of the Christ as passalong cards and bookmarks in my scriptures but I don’t kiss it and prostate to it or anything for blessing; and I think I disagree about this to a point that I believe that this is breaking the second commandment (idol worship). What makes me doubt the Orthodox church from being 100% true is how it yields to the Nicene Creed which really doesn’t make it the true ancient church of Jesus Christ due to change/addition of doctrine if it so claims to be the old and unchanging church since the early Christian saints. And then there’s a warning which I take very seriously, in the Book of Mormon, with regard to “…of a great church” that is “…most abominable” which houses the wearers of “fine-twined linen and all manner of precious clothing” :\ I mean, I love how doctrinally, the Orthodox Church looks attractive, but I am a bit paranoid how if one involves in it, it is like treading into the dark unknown; just like how I think most (newly) LDS converts are pretty naive and delusional about the church for its outward attractive appearance doctrinally (the kind who out-Mormon everyone else).

tl;dr, but I still don’t know, though.

I think I will attend an Orthodox service at my earliest opportunity.

The choice is yours, there is a reason why people are calling LDS a cult, actually there are many reasons, one of which is the belief that Christ and Satan are brothers….are you kidding me Mormons? If you can’t sense the presence of Satanism in your cult than I truly feel sorry for you.

Sorry for such a heated comment, I just can’t stand to see people being brainwashed into eternal damnation, and heretics comparing the Orthodox Church with something completely anti-Christian.

humbly in Christ,
Anthony