[ducking now to avoid the rocks]

A lot of ex-bishops, HC and Counselors, I guess. Where I live, people don’t tend to move from unless it is from their house to the ground!

#28 Missionary Stu – I think you’re taking this a little personally and you may be misunderstanding the topic. The folk doctrine of “I have the priesthood = I rule without question” and its modern day manifestations are what is being compared and contrasted here. While I do agree with you that there is a huge difference between righteous and unrighteous dominion, I do believe that every one of us is in a position to judge the “dominion tactics” as righteous or unrighteous via prayer and the Holy Ghost. As a missionary (long time ago), I told people not to believe me and to ask God for themselves if the things I was teaching them were true. The same concept isn’t really emphasized all that much after we join the church even though it should be. We had an apostle come down and talk to us about this very same concept. He said that when a leader has the priesthood and is governing righteously, the directives will be authenticated by the Spirit. If not, the leader has either gone off the tracks or the member isn’t listening by either not living in a manner conducive to hearing or has simply chosen to live in blind faith which is counter productive in the grand scheme of things. The member not listening clearly supports your point, which is why it is so important that we, as citizens in the kingdom of God here on the earth, learn to exercise our God given intellect infused with the faith necessary for salvation and act accordingly. This is even more important for those of us who are parents.

In righteous dominion, the leader’s ego and ambitions don’t factor into the equation. A bishop which calls a few of the brethren together to get a service project done is an example of righteous dominion. However, if the bishop adds that because he has the keys of the priesthood to the ward and was set apart under the hand of Elder ______ that you have to do what he says because “whether it be out of my mouth or the mouth of my servants it is the same,” we start going into the unrighteous dominion. (I’ve actually been on the receiving end of that last one.) In all honesty, it’s pretty easy to differentiate between the two.

The point I’m trying to make here is that the influence of these folk doctrines sometimes overrides both common sense and celestial law here on the earth.

Good Lord! what planet are you guys from? Our wards here never have more than 7 or so HP in a class! Even sometimes when there are only 2 odd we have to meet with the elders, who are never more than about 15 or there abouts, if that!

I guess we all had better stop talking about anything since it seems impossible to discuss something without making some sort of a judgment.

Oh, wait, that was a judgment too.

There is a difference between righteous intermediate judgments and final judgments. (See Dallin H. Oaks, CES Fireside “Judge Not and Judging” Mar. 1 1998; as both a GA and a former UT Supreme Court justice, I think he’s qualified to speak on the subject.) Without intermediate judgments we have no basis for making day to day decisions on what we should and should not do. The scriptures even function as a guide to help us make those intermediate judgments. Final judgments are a different story, and I do sincerely hope that none of us are making that type. (I hope I didn’t hijack the post too much)

My HP group is excellent and our lessons are always lively! I teach once a month and get good participation and excellent response. I try to challenge some of the norms and it almost always turns out fun and enlightening. We have about 40 HPs in our Ward.

Shadow: I agree… many of these rules (like the no tv thing) are exactly like the number-of-steps thing. It’s really amazing how people tend to latch onto these things and hold them up as requirements of the law.

Shadow, I hope you don’t mind me linking to your comment and quoting that sentence in a future post on my own blog. That is a perfect summary of the issue, imo.

I completely agree and I don’t think you are all that off topic.

I can’t ascribe any value to them. These folk doctrines (not drinking coke, staying in church clothes all day Sunday, not watching TV, etc.) are akin to being allotted only a certain number of steps on the sabbath day. The modern day versions of these traditions of the elders are given enormous weight just as the number of steps were in the times of Christ himself. Christ had an interesting discussion with the pharisees on this very topic in the 15th chapter of Matthew.

Too often I see people cling to these traditions more than the gospel. The problem with building a hedge around the law is that after a while, people think the hedge is the law.

“senility” is the main problem in my group. Average age is 70 something.

I was comparing HP groups with a relative. Mine is a joy, literate, reflective and thoughtful, with nice participation. I love it. Others, obviously, do not always have that sort of experience.

“BYU devotionals and CES firesides, if attended in person (as opposed to viewed on TV or online,) bring with them otherwise unavailable spiritual benefits.” – What about the ones that aren’t held at BYU? Are we expected to travel to those? I could see how in certain circumstances the efforts of some to be there in person could legitimately benefit them spiritually. It’s a flawed notion in terms of sheer logistics – there’s no way all BYU students could fit in the Marriott Center

“‘Ward Prayer’ attendance is mandatory for temple worthiness” – I hated ward prayer when I first went to singles wards (I still call it “social prayer” instead). Sometimes it actually seems to take away from the spirit of the Sabbath.

“The Sabbath begins when you wake up” – I agree, KC, I like this one too. Part of it stems from the fact that I was (and still am) often up until 2am any day. It seemed strange to suddenly shift to Sunday mode at midnight Saturday, and back out at midnight 24 hours later. I don’t know whether the Jews had clocks back in the day to measure time, and my understanding is that the Sabbath began and ended at sundown, which seems like it ought to be (roughly) when people should be heading to bed anyway… But I’m not a historian and could be wrong.

BYU devotionals and CES firesides, if attended in person (as opposed to viewed on TV or online,) bring with them otherwise unavailable spiritual benefits.
I rarely missed a CES fireside or devotional, but I most always took advantage of modern conveniences to tune into the message, opting to forgo the fuss of long lines, traffic, and dressing up. I was often chided by my “more righteous” counterparts who made a point of contributing to the “bums in seats” number, citing the benefits of a “special spirit” from being there in person, that I clearly was missing out on.

“Ward Prayer” attendance is mandatory for temple worthiness
“Ward Prayer” is a Sunday evening meeting designed to fill the role of a family devotional for student wards. There are announcements, a thought, a hymn, and a prayer. Sometimes refreshments are served, in which case it assumes the names of “mix and mingle,” “eat and greet”, or “dessert and flirt.” I don’t believe it exists outside of church-owned school singles wards, but at BYU, failure to attend is tantamount to ditching Sacrament meeting.

The Sabbath begins when you wake up
This one I kind of like. In response to some folks in the dorms who, at the stroke of 12:00 on Saturday night, would patrol their fellow students’ rooms, exhorting them to turn off their “worldly music,” because the “Sabbath had begun,” the excuse was given that the Sabbath starts when you wake up in the morning. I’ve never been too Pharisaical when it comes to Sabbath day observance, so this one seemed reasonable to me.

How do all you HPs out there put up with HP classes? I’ve been to one since someone decided I needed to receive a calling that required the office of HP and it was rather scary. I’m not sure whether it was the presence of false doctrine, senility or both!

Thanks.

Thank you for recognizing the value of some of these folk doctrines (not drinking coke, wearing church clothes all day on Sunday and not watching TV, etc.) They definitely did have value. It’s a mistake to completely dismiss them.

I think the real key is to not be judgemental about them — either way.

On the other hand, and I realize that I think I am way off topic, but I’m going for it. When I was younger we didn’t watch TV on Sunday, we stayed in our church clothes all Day, etc… We are all about that now, but totally in the closet, otherwise people think we are radicals!!!! So there is something good to say about an older Generation, they kept us on the straight & narrow (not that I am implying no TV Sunday & church clothes all day is straight & narrow exclusively, give me some slack, don’t caps me.)