After you get a testimony (if you do) then you’ll better understand that people don’t convert or convince other people. The Holy Ghost has to do the converting/convincing, otherwise the person has merely been “sold” on something, and a better salesman will come along later and sell the person something else.

Many people grow up in the church having been “sold” on the gospel by their parents and local teachers/leaders, and never gain a spirit-borne testimony. Eventually “the world”, or anti’s in particular, can come along and sell them different ideas.

I admire your self-analysis in this. You’ve put some good thought into it.

Here’s a hint to help you figure out your own relation to the church and the gospel: Talk to adult converts. You’ve soaked up information from other “lifers”, both your peers and those of your parents’/ward leaders’ generation, but maybe you haven’t gathered enough information from people who aren’t lifers.

Converts of less than a year often still have that sense of awe and wonder that you can pick up on, even if they don’t have the words to quite describe it. Between 1 and 3 years on, converts often have found the vocabulary to convey the awe and wonder, but haven’t yet fully absorbed the bland “Mormon-speak” that masks their unique experiences.

Without a testimony yourself, you can’t quite grasp the under-the-surface meaning of Mormon-speak. Some members without a testimony use “Mormon-speak”, and without the Spirit behind the words, the words devolve into meaningless blandness, and can be confusing to others who don’t yet have a testimony. (IE, it sounds like they’re repeating Mormon “mantras”.)

I hope you keep on seeking.

That’s probably answer enough.

Part of that is looking at a mission as “what is in this for me” instead of “should I obey and serve others?”

Russell that was pretty much my experience as well. We need to have more patience for each other.

You’re right, Andrew. You can find a really good justification to go and another one that is just as good to stay and not go because intellect and reason are servants, tools, not controlling factors.

N. glad you went.

He was a good man who was thrown into an administrative position with which he was unfamiliar. I was similarly trying to do good in a program that was rather nebulous in its guidelines. He wanted to do good things, he wanted to fulfill the legitimate interests of the “white shirts” in SLC (the auto dep’t was a big issue as well). In spite of some *extremely* tense moments, it all turned out alright in the end.

Go easy on them. If they fail to do the Lord’s work every moment of every day, it doesn’t suddenly mean that the Lord’s missionary program has fallen apart at the seams.

There are so many stories like yours, were mission presidents don’t do the right thing just to look good to GA’s. Same day baptisms, wow, I wonder what the baptized person thinks.

I think its time now to radically change the missionary program. Hopefully now that we have a first presidency and quorum president (Packer) who didn’t serve missions, maybe now they will find the inspiration to do so. Its interesting that the new universal manual for missionary work, Preach My Gospel, is also freely available to stake and ward members. Maybe its a sign of the big change that will come one day.

Sounds like a south american mission? Our quota was 3 to 5 per month, practically one a week.

But I would trade anything to go back to Pt Kimball’s letter and choose not to sign it. I, generally, hated my mission experience.

On my mission we were happy to baptize two or three people per year. It was the hardest thing I have ever done, and I wouldn’t trade anything to do it go back and do it differently.

re 65: Oh, I see then. But then there’s a difference between saying one cannot receive such a revelation and saying that one has not received such a revelation (a difference between strong agnosticism (I don’t know, I can’t know, and you can’t either!) the much more common and reasonable weak agnosticism (I don’t know, but perhaps I could find out). The second is in many ways much more awkward, because you realize that around you, there are people who indeed *have* been compelled to do certain things and who (at least believe that they) know…some things which might not make sense, some things which might make sense. I’m not going to lie; it baffles atheists (or I guess just some) that some people do have a genuine sense of faith, which is why there is nearly as much generalization and rationalization on that side to try to “explain it away” as there is on the other (of people who, from their experience, don’t understand how someone could not, trying to explain that away)

So by saying that there are many good ways to spend two years, the implication is “Who’s to say that one should/shouldn’t go on a mission?” This presumes that one cannot receive a revelation from God on the matter. Now if one *truly* feels that God does not want them to go/does not care if they go on a mission, then I have nothing in response. But brushing it off with “so many good things to do” w/o asking what *God* wants us to do really is skirting the issue. I know when I’ve used this rationalization, it’s been b/c I don’t know what to do, and I don’t feel like God has made it known. Or on other occasions, it was simply my way of expressing confusion at my present circumstances, a confusion that I should have taken as a divine hint to change course.

A mission “ain’t about you”.

As well as saying that if you don’t feel the calling, if you don’t feel the Lord calling you to go, then don’t go, please.

Life as a missionary is unbearable if you don’t want to be there (by the way max age is 23 since about 2001)

re 56: interesting point on putting those first things first, jks. I guess it’s true that you have to believe before hand, instead of using a mission as something to try to inspire that.

re 58: that’s an interesting way, Russell, of using the term agnostic. Do you really expect many, most, or all people to know either way? (e.g., know whether there is or know whether there is not a God)? It seems like one can be agnostic and know it fully well…it’s not something one slips into, and not from “convincing” ourselves that we can “find good in so many ways,” either. But then again, I’m thinking we just have different uses of the term.

re 59 and 60: of course, attitude is critical. The question would be: how to develop such a positive attitude? Can anyone and everyone do it (and is this backed up with anything or just an expectation of how things should work?)

re 61: Of course, as I look back through my journals, I recognize I am completely different too. And I hate it. So I try to at least be in control of trying to change in some of the ways I would like to change (even though I know I will have much unconscious and uncontrolled change too).

As I look back at friends and even at myself every 5 years or decade were almost completely different people than we were before.

59″I think people should go on a mission only if they’re totally committed to it.”

I was one of those who wasn’t totally committed but was glad I went. At the first of my mission I even had to set daily goals “I will just stay this day , this week this month etc and if its really horrible I always have the option to go home”. I think in reality alot of the elders with the raised bar in their heart of hearts do the same thing.