I appreciate your concern and comments. And you’re right. A lot of people make the mistake of thinking that because I am what I am and I do what I do is because I’m full of hate and anger and it just consumes me. That’s not the case. I spend very little of my spare time here or on my blog.

And my agenda here has not been to try and change anyones mind. But when I saw the title of this article and read it, I just had to say something. The reason is because I know for a fact that it is not a false doctrine and it actually rather upsets me when I see the church trying to brush off embarrasing doctrine and pretend it never happened until even the members start believing it never happened. It did happen and it was a doctrine. But the problem for the church is that if they just come out and say it was a false doctrine and they are sorry for teaching it, then that discredits those who originally taught it, and they just can’t have that. So they just pretend it was never said and that is what upsets me. They are actively deceiving people.

All I’ve tried to do is add another perspective to the discussion and sincerely answer sincere questions. You all seem to think that I have this huge problem, when, in fact, I am very happy with my life. I’m doing awesome in school and I have a great future ahead of me.

So I guess I’ve had my say. I’ll retreat back to my blog where any of you are free to come and disagree with me on the topics I bring up there. If you don’t want to, just know that we’re not so different. We’re all just searching for truth. It’s been my pleasure.

Once I get the beep out of here, I’m sure things will be different for me.

I am going to be much more blunt and personally direct than I normally am on a public forum like this, M411. I hope that’s ok, and I also hope that you realize I really am saying what I’m about to say purely because I truly do want you to be happy. Take it as totally unsolicited advice, and do with it whatever you will. Chalk it up to anything you desire, but I am sincere in my desire for your happiness.

I have said over and over again that those who are miserable in the Church shouldn’t stay in it – that God will judge all of us by our efforts to become like Him, and those who are able to pursue that effort better outside the Church should do so. I just don’t like it when someone who is not happy tries to shatter other people’s happiness – and I would say that about someone who is totally miserable in the Church and tries to convince happy “outsiders” to join the Church.

I understand your anaology, but I think your last sentence is the most enlightening of all – and you might want to consider the following if you are looking for self-understanding:

First, a change of location RARELY changes the person someone has become prior to the change, especially when that person has gone out of their way to pursue a course of action. (Parents who move from one state to another in order to get their kids out of gangs and off of drugs generally see those kids join gangs and do drugs wherever they move, even Utah.) Participating in any internet community requires a conscious choice, and you chose to come here. Nobody forced it on you or coerced you in any way; you came here of your own volition. This forum is not something you have to experience “whether (you) want to or not”. It’s part of your life because you made it a past of your life. Again, you chose it freely, without constraint. It’s not something that was thrust on you as a result of where you live; it’s a neighborhood into which you chose to move.

Second, this is a site frequented primarily by those who know every bit as much about “the rest of the story” as you do. Nothing you say here is going to shock or surprise anyone. Those who don’t agree with you aren’t going to agree with you becuase of your efforts, and those who do agree with you aren’t going to disagree with you because of your efforts. You’ve picked a forum here where, as far as your stated intent of “education” is concerned, your chances of influencing others to change their beliefs is minimal. It’s a safe place for you to vent, since we restrict very little, but it’s also a rather “neutered” place to change minds. Yet, you remain. As jen has stated in her questions to you, but using your own words, you could “get the beep out of here” any time you want – but you choose to stay.

Third, we also, generally, aren’t living in the middle of “LDS territory”. I know nothing about what you do in your own LDS territory (if those around you are aware of your feelings and efforts on the web), but here you are stepping outside of that territory and choosing not to “get the beep out of here”. Given that fact, I’m not sure anything will change for you “once (you) get the beep out of” the physical area where you live.

I hope you can move on and focus on your own happiness, but my experience over the years says the chances that will happen are lower than you think – and they decrease the longer you stay the beep where you are.

Again, take that for what it’s worth. If I am wrong, I am wrong – and I apologize sincerely. I’m just sharing with you the results of my decades of studying history and observing people. I really, truly hope I am wrong, but that ultimately is up to you.

It’s like this. If a sweet talking con man came into your neighborhood knocking on doors and conning people out of their money, wouldn’t you place a few phone calls to stop the guy? Or at least warn people not to give him their money? Assuming that you know for a fact that the guy is a con artist, even though you’re not obligated to do anything, you feel morally that you should do something.

If the Mormons want to send out thousands of missionaries, then so be it. They are just doing what they believe is the right thing to do. But they shouldn’t be offended or surprised when someone simply wants to make sure that the whole story is told, not just their version of it.

So I basically consider myself the good neighbor who is trying to warn my neighbors about the dangerous con man. If they don’t want to listen, fine. At least I tried.

Jen, I see your point and understand your confusion. And I don’t even know what to say other than to assure you that I have moved on. But remember that even though I don’t believe, I still live right in the middle of LDS territory. So even if I wanted it to be completely out of my life, it would be impossible. I see Mormon culture every single day, whether I want to or not. It’s still very much a part of my life. Once I get the beep out of here, I’m sure things will be different for me.

I am not trying to argue with you, I honestly just wonder how you can find happiness hanging onto the past, that’s all. That is what stumps me. I can use this analogy to help you understand better what I am trying to say. If I break up with a boyfriend and get a new one, it is not going to make me happy to keep focusing on the old boyfriend by talking about him and complaining about him. He is going to go on with his life without me, so it is just affecting me negatively in the long run. Focusing on the the old boyfriend leaves me very little time to enjoy my new boyfriend and makes it impossible for me to really move forward with that new relationship. It seems to me if you don’t fully embrace your new way of thinking then you will never really get to enjoy the full benefits that you say it brings…the freedom so to speak.

In relation to missionaries, from the experience that I have with those who have been on missions, their purpose wasn’t to tell others that their religion was wrong (assuming they were part of one) but to see if they wanted to learn about the LDS faith. Plenty of people said no and others wanted to learn about it. I was under the impression that you served a mission for the LDS church so I think you already know this.

I truly have an interest in learning about others and their life experiences. I am sincere when I say I don’t understand why you are doing what you are doing because it seems to breed unhappiness for you personally. I just have to accept that this isn’t the case and that you find purpose in what you are doing just as I do in what I try to do in my life.

I seek only understanding, not contention or negative feelings. Best of luck to you in your life.

M411, I generally have respected what you’ve written here (I mean that sincerely.), but that has to be one of the most contradictory statements I’ve ever read from anyone here.

You are doing **exactly** what the Mormon Church is doing, but you’re right to do it and they are wrong? I’m sorry, but that’s ludicrous.

Thanks for answering my question. I am always curious to know why people are who they are and what led them to the place they are now.

I still have a hard time understanding why you spend the time you do trying to discredit the Mormon faith. I wouldn’t find any happiness in tearing down others beliefs but would find it in living what I believe to be true and real….in other words….live and let live. I guess I will just have to be stumped on that point.

It really happened in stages. I remember sitting in Sunday school one day and suddenly having the thought that it all just sounded like a fairy tale. Jesus walking on water, commanding the elements, etc. I just realized that those are stories that don’t really happen.

At about the same time, I was starting school and taking several science classes. Biology, anatomy, chemistry, etc. I began to see the very strong evidence for the Evolutionary Theory.

Bottom line, religion started sounding really silly. Science started more and more like reality.

Once I was at that point, then I started to realize that praying and going through the motions had never really done anything. I began to realize that “god” was surprisingly absent in my life.

Then common sense kicked in. Death and taxes, right? I realized that we accept, as a fact, that all things die. Even planets and stars, and eventually the universe. Since that is the case, there is no such thing as an immortal being. So even if there is some intelligent dude creating planets, then he is doomed to die just like everything else.

The idea that one person can create an entire world is impossible as well. The non-belief in god is not really atheism, but more like just pure rationalism. I’m not really atheist; I’m just a very rationally minded person. I don’t believe in the supernatural. I’ve never seen a miracle that was so amazing it could only be from god.

We don’t really believe in superheroes, but we love to hear stories about them. Religion is simply that. Jesus is a superhero. Therefore, Jesus is just a story.

It is as though we are being tested, imagine that.

If I’d known this thread was going to have so many comments I could have claimed some inspiration to the “neverending” part of the post title

“I struggled myself for about a year. It was the discovery of the Book of Abraham issue that forever shattered whatever belief was left.”

When I have had major struggles with issues relating to my faith (and there have been plenty) I have taken them to the Lord and over time I have been able to either receive greater understanding about an issue or peace concerning it. When you did believe in God, did He tend to be the source you went to for your answers or was it in books, other people, etc.? I want to understand your approach to your struggles and what led to your complete loss of belief in God.

The Book of Abraham is an interesting example of clutter (see prior comment). Its origins are cluttered, but its message and content are powerful. Many who study ancient documents tell us the message is authentic in spite of the cluttered connection to the Chandler text. So we have clutter, but no hard evidence to lose faith in the prophet Joseph Smith. This is evident from the fact that the members of the church who have expertise in ancient documents remain faithful members of the church.

I think well meaning church leaders, mostly in the past (but not all), have tried to tidy up church history, doctrine and image, and in the process have left some members with unrealistic expectations of how things really are in a fallen world. And when some of these members encounter clutter they are unprepared to deal with it.

I’ve found that those members who have applied themselves to diligent prayer and scripture study are more likely to make the necessary adjustments. One of the reasons for this is that the scriptures show things the way they are–cluttered.

For example, the first few chapter of the Book of Mormon introduces the reader to a family who have goodly parents, but all the children are not like their parents. It turns out that they fight and quarrel and even attempt murder. To make things even more interesting the Lord has arranged it this way. If He would have wanted, all of the children could have been like Nephi. This would have made for a neat and tidy journey to the promised land.

Of course, Nephi would not have turned into the prophet we know because he wouldn’t have been able to acquire the faith he did without his brothers supplying opposition nearly every step of the way.

The clutter in each of our lives can be valuable to the man or woman of faith if they turn to the Lord for solutions and are willing to endure and wait on the Lord. This message is repeated over and over again in the scriptures.

Kuri, #94: Very well said. I struggled myself for about a year. It was the discovery of the Book of Abraham issue that forever shattered whatever belief was left.

I agree that the belief is widespread, but I saw a Gospel Doctrine teacher shoot it down with “That’s an interesting idea. Next question” when somebody tried to bring it up in Sunday School before. I don’t think it’s quite as common anymore as you suggest.

That’s a perfectly reasonable response IMO. But in my case, much like Jared, I had experiences I considered spiritual, and that “evidence” did not seem to accord with the idea that “None of it is true.” So the choices I saw at the time were a) ignore what reason told me, b) ignore my spiritual experiences, or c) find some way to reconcile reason and spirituality. “Heterodoxy,” becoming an “internet Mormon” as you put it, was my c).

Well, sort of. For me it wasn’t this website in particular, or even blogs, but finding other questioning people on the internet was a revelation. I found out that other people were asking the same questions, and they were finding answers other than “None of it is true.” In some cases, I literally didn’t know LDS were “allowed” to believe what some of these people believed. Many LDS accept what biology, geology, and astronomy tell us about the world and don’t believe that it’s 6,000 years old? I didn’t know that. The prophet can make mistakes? Didn’t know that either. That alone erased probably over 90 percent of my “concerns.” Talking to those people, hearing those ideas, and developing my own did far more for my faith than any amount of the sort of sometimes tortured apologetics one can find at sites like FARM and FAIR.