http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2009/01/there-is-an-end-to-race/

Yes, there is some dissent about whether they were child-sacrifices, or just burned remains of dead children, but ancient sources all indicate it was the former. Decide for yourselves. As far as I can tell, that is where the evidence points most steadily.

There are also plenty of sources for their sexual practices. One easy example, look at the worship of Aphrodite, who was an imported version of Ashtoreth and/or similar goddesses.

And yes, God doesn’t need anyone to do His dirty work for him. But for that matter, He doesn’t need us to do any work for him. He can do his own work. But sometimes he asks us to do things we can do for ourselves.

As for leaving the children alive… I suppose He could have asked that. Not that it was so successful when we did it to the Native Americans.

Why did God ask Joshua and Moses to do this? I don’t know. But most people need very little help justifying bad things.

Do you have any sources for the bad behavior of the Canaanites that aren’t based on Biblical accounts? Since it’s quite common for perpetrators of genocide to point to the filthy sexual habits, human sacrifices, and cannibalism of their victims as justification for killing them, Biblical accounts of what the Canaanites were like need to be taken with a grain of salt, IMO.

And as MH points out, it doesn’t really make sense to say “The Canaanites killed some of their children, so the Israelites were justified in killing all of their children.”

Assuming they were guilty of sacrificing children (which is in dispute–see Nocoolname_tom), wouldn’t it make sense to save the children from sacrifice, instead of killing the children? It seems ludicrous to me that you are going to kill the children to avoid them being used in human sacrifice, doesn’t it?

Does this conversation actually need context? This is troubling to me because, in a sense, it is just like saying “Well, the Fancher party was poisoning cattle and bragging about killing Joseph Smith.” Even if it were true (I don’t believe it is), how does that mean that they somehow deserve what they got?

It involved, if not human sacrifice, then certainly child sacrifice, especially but not exclusively with Chemosh. According to some sources, they would heat a large iron idol red-hot and then drop the child into the idol’s out stretched arms.

And we mustn’t forget Baal and Ashtorah – who would just won’t love to have sex-priestess at church? It would make for quite a different sacrament meeting! In any case, sex with the priestess was part of the religion. Their creation recitals were also particularly immoral and lead people to “play the harlot”.

When Nephi says those people were ripened in iniquity, he wasn’t joking.

Now that we have this with a bit of context, please continue your discussion.

I am skittish about your line of reasoning. Yes, God can dictate “genocide” (must we use the word? I feel like I would rather be in the Clinton White House during the Rwandan “g-word” right now). However, I feel far more comfortable with him using agents (weather, floods, fire) that *have not been given the gift of human agency* (and let’s not let Cleon Skousen’s talk, “The Meaning of the Atonement* muddy the waters here).

Otherwise, if we too easily/quickly say that Joshua was an agent in God’s hands, then we have opened up a line of argument can quite literally explode in our faces (in the case of suicide bombers or dive bombers, depending on which side of the Israel-Palestine conflict one is on).

So let’s not take an entire destruction of a people too lightly–unless, of course, we are willing to begin defending the Mountain Meadows Massacre. I, for one, am not willing–and will happily wait on the Lord to provide further light before I dare view the lives of an entire nation as expendable.

I stand corrected. You are correct in saying that the Canaanites were there before Abraham. Seemingly there was no conflict between Abraham and the Canaanites, as he purchased land from them, for the burial of his wife near Hebron. It seems relatively peaceful from Abraham through Jacob. Things change during the time of Moses/Joshua.

Are you seriously trying to say that when someone is in a fulness of iniquity that God cannot choose how he wants them to be destroyed? And that God is never justified in destroying anyone in a state of a fulness of iniquity?

Of course God can choose to act the way he wants to. If God wants to destroy a city, I’m much more comfortable with his method in Sodom and Gomorrah, than this method in Jericho. Man of all religions, has shown a propensity to commit atrocities in the name of God, and this bears too many similarities to the Crusades and Jihad to be passed over. Man fighting in the name of God is endemic to the human race, whether it be the God of Asherah, Zues, Ra, Thor, or other diety.

I find the actions in the book of Joshua to be incongruous with Jesus who told us that if we say ‘Raca’, then we sin. Now this post isn’t out to be an anti-war rant, as I believe that there can be proper justifications for war. However, these justifications are for defensive war, not offensive war. Joshua’s war was a war of conquest, not defense. Same goes for the Crusades. Jihadists targeting innocent civilians is reprehensible–even though they try to claim nobody in America is innocent.

Cheryl – I agree. I’m trying to come up with a better reading from Joshua, and would love to hear a better way to interpret this story.

J Madsen – interesting quote. I must say I’m not fond of the “inventing” scenario, as I believe it casts too much doubt on the Bible. Regardless of which theory you prefer, Joshua is seen as following God’s directions to wipe out entire cities, which I view as incongruous with Jesus gospel. People who fail to see these similarities, are doomed to repeat them, as Ron has pointed out.

Cicero – The difference between Joshua and the crusades or modern jihadists, is that Joshua killed when God said “kill”. The others killed when God said “do not kill”. Are you saying that Bin Ladin believes he is going against God’s will? Did the Pope believe he was going against God’s will? I believe that in both of these cases, these men truly feel that God is inspiring them to kill. They are doing these things specifically in the name of God. Just because you don’t agree with the crusaders or jihadists makes you an infidel, worthy of God’s wrath. Are you here to tell me that if you lived in Canaan, worshipping Asherah, that you would converted to Judaism just because Joshua told you so? Why haven’t you converted to Islam because Bin Ladin told you so?

If God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, what’s preventing him from wiping out Las Vegas, San Francisco, Amsterdam, Pyongyang, Baghdad, Darfur, Chechnya, or Bosnia? Perhaps some of you believe that God is carrying out these orders. Even Pat Robertson said the WTC attacks were a result of the US wickedness, seemingly agreeing with Bin Ladin. So, pick your favorite leader: Robertson, Bin Ladin, Thomas Monson, Rick Warren, Billy Graham, the Pope, the Greek Orthodox Patriarch… If ‘he’ declared Holy War on wicked city of your choice, and specifically wanted you to kill livestock as well as men, women and children, because God declared that the city was ripe in iniquity, would you participate? What makes you different than Ron Lafferty, Jihadists, Eric Rudolph, the Crusaders, or anyone else who justifies mass extinction in the name of God? Frankly, I just don’t know what the livestock did to deserve to die.

I agree that the idea of a “safe” God is appealing. However, it is apparent to me that life is not safe at all. All of us experience our share of hardships. Yes, God’s ways are not our ways, and he allows all sorts of things that cause us to scratch our heads. However, I do not believe God condones mass slaughter. If God wants to do it, he certainly has the power, and precedent in Sodom and Gomorrah. But I would rather die, believing that mass murder is wrong, than follow along with an order to exterminate an entire group of people. These orders have proved not only disastrous, but uninspired by God. I dare anyone to name a mass murder inspired by God in the last 2000 years. If God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, why has he quit using men as his instruments for the extermination business?

based upon your assertions, what makes God, God? I assert its his virtue which is his power. Can God be immoral or is morality entirely a function of whatever God commands?

In the context of this conversation, I also think its highly relevant to ask what actions what cause God to cease to be God. I would suggest genocide would be one of them.

Just hours/days after the aggressive, murderous, non just, non God authorized invasion of Gaza where 2,000 innocent civilians were killed in an act of revenge, the Israeli fundamentalists were employing God’s name, his authority, their virtue, etc. in doing so. If they could twist their narratives in days, think what 500 years of oral traditions could do. For me the war narrative of the Israelites into Palestine by Joshua is the ULTIMATE TAKING OF THE LORD’S NAME IN VAIN. They may or may not have done these despicable deeds, but if they did the God that came among men in the meridian of time sure as hell did not command it–and if He did , he is not the God I know–the same God that kept repeating “it has been said of old” such and such but here I am to tell you all that your nationalist bullshit is dark and corrupt to the core. I despise these narratives because they are the same narratives we use to murder millions in Viet Nam and Iraq and suggest somehow God’s will is caught up in it. I am sick to the core of murderous, christian/mormon jihadist. Sure, let’s kill all men, women, and scurrying little children–oh, except the whores who gave us comfort and intel—and say God told us to do it–employing the same Asiatic calling card pattern of “kill them all and let God sort it out. THe same crap we heard in Viet Nam and the Popes used when they killed all the inhabitants of Carcassone. Thanks for the topic. History and facts are stubborn things but make believe “god told us” is really easy

If God says “kill”- you kill.

If God says “do not kill” then you don’t kill.

I don’t get what is so hard about the concept. God is God, and I figure he has a better understanding of the morality or not of such issues.

The difference between Joshua and the crusades or modern jihadists, is that Joshua killed when God said “kill”. The others killed when God said “do not kill”.

Simple.

Might I ask- what is the inherent value of life anyway? All men die. Why should we value life?

The reason life has intrinsic value is because God values life. If He in His wisdom decides that some men need to die that’s His right. After all, He created us and gave us life. It’s His to take back whenever He chooses.

I get the feeling that some people around here only want a God that’s “safe” and never does anything that they don’t feel good about. Or maybe you people think that God is an imaginary being that we create in our heads, and we can change His attributes by thinking of Him a certain way.

God is God, whatever you want to think about Him does not change His attributes one bit. He exists independent of man, and therefor we must deal with Him as He is- not as we might wish Him to be.

The clearest example we have of who God is and what he is like is in Jesus of Nazareth, if you have seen me… God manifest in Jesus is nothing like the God of genocide and murder that the histories in the OT would have us believe. I am particularly fond of the way Gil Bailie contrasts the Joshua of the OT with the Joshua/Jesus who we had all waited for.

“Ultimately, then, it was another Joshua – the Yehosua about whom the Gospels were written – who stepped into the Jordan in a truly decisive way, not “opposite” (neged) his hated enemies, but “in the presence of” (neged) his God. This Joshua/Jesus became the victim of the kind of sacrificial violence over which his ancestral namesake presided, and, to make the parallel complete, he left behind him no “cairn” that might be turned into yet another sacrificial shrine. They went to the tomb and found it empty.”

Joshua’s killing of the innocents has nothing to do with the Jesus of the New Testament. We need to relearn how to read the text.

Cheryl McGuire

For the record, I believe in the LDS standard works. But I don’t believe our leaders are without errors, and in my view this is a pretty significant error by Joshua. I don’t believe this is the sort of thing that should be promoted in lessons as an example of following God’s will.