#152 Cowboy said: “How do you reconcile the notion that early Mormon Rhetoric, JS History for example, is laden with examples where the numerous iterations of Christianity were far removed from The Lord, with your argument that The Lord uses these Churches to bring about his righteous purposes by drawing souls to, what one Apostle said was The Whore of all The Earth? Particularly when LDS scriptures conclude that these various Churches corrupted the Lords gospel by removing many of it’s “plain and precious parts”, and that Satan is their author.”

I think it has to do with perspective. Your assignment can paint you into a box. I think the apostles and prophets are in a box and are required by their assignment to speak and advocate within the restraints of their calling. They can think outside of the box, and they do, but when they speak they are obligated to be restrained. This really isn’t unusual it can be seen in nearly every profession. The Bloggernacle is a counter example of what I am saying, it’s like the wild west, we have few restraints.

Elder McConkie spoke from the position of an LDS apostle and when comparing the restored church to any other he was blunt. He didn’t say an untruth, but he didn’t cover all the bases either. I think apostles from Joseph Smith’s day to our own would say that there are many wonderful people in other religions and that their training in their respective churches helped them become that way.

There is another aspect to your question that doesn’t get talked about often and that is the Lord sends some of His children into this world to very difficult circumstances. We see this with some of the diseases children get. It appears to be the same for the kind of political system, religion, and culture we may be born into. This kinds of experiences are not wasted. The Lord uses dreadful experience to are advantage.

150 – There is something that we can entirely agree upon.

149 – “Not everyone is supposed to be a Mormon. We’re all at different places on the path to eternal life and I believe the Lord uses many churches to accomplish His purposes. Temple work is His blessing to all mankind to become members of His church–The Church of the First Born.”

That is an interesting perspective. Obviously Mormons would be out of touch if we believed that everybody was supposed to be born into a condition which would lead them to join the Church. That is sort of where our unique doctrines surrounding Salvation for the dead come into play. Even still, your assertion that God desires that many of the people who are born into the various cultures are intended to be driven to various forms of apostate Christianity is unique. How do you reconcile the notion that early Mormon Rhetoric, JS History for example, is laden with examples where the numerous iterations of Christianity were far removed from The Lord, with your argument that The Lord uses these Churches to bring about his righteous purposes by drawing souls to, what one Apostle said was The Whore of all The Earth? Particularly when LDS scriptures conclude that these various Churches corrupted the Lords gospel by removing many of it’s “plain and precious parts”, and that Satan is their author.

Your statement seems almost universalist, though it bears an obvious semblance to the Church’s more contemporary interfaith public relations effort, which tend to demphasize the apostate nature of all other Churches and rather emphasize our Church as a fullness of truth in a religious sea of partial/incomplete truths. This notwithstanding, if you believe that God will drive souls unto other Churches, what gives you your assurance that the LDS Church is the actual “True” Church, and not just the Church you are being guided to in light of the culture you are in?

I am curious about your statement:

“In my opinion, birth into this world is not an accident. I believe every birth has the Lord’s hand in it.”

That would seem to indicate that people born into desperate circumstances such as famine, war, disease are at God’s will. I know this post has nothing to do with evil and suffering but maybe you could address it another time.

Lastly, on thread, having these sorts of opinions means for me being quiet and not saying much in church. As a nephew in law of mine said once, Sunday school is catechism, not a discussion.

Of course it’s OK.

Cowboy said: “Why would it be, in your opinion, more virtuous for someone to approach The Book of Mormon from the position of trying to gain a testimony, than it is to study it’s history.”

In my opinion, a person could study the Book of Mormon for whatever reason brought them to the task. Some read it– to disprove it –so that a loved one won’t join the church. Others, are just curious. I’d imagine there are scores of reason people read the book. However, if they are wanting to obtain a manifestation from the Holy Ghost then they need to do it in the Lord’s way.

Cowboy said: “Could not this desire, be seen as a questionable factor towards confirmation bias?”

Yes, I think someone can make an argument that if we read the BoM for a testimony then that will set the stage for one and make it a self fulfilling event. I’m sure this kind of thing happens. But how long will that kind of experience last? This could account for the reason people leave the church shortly after joining.

On the other side of this issue are those who do receive an authentic testimony from the Holy Ghost. Their membership in the church is not fragile. They’ve had a conversion experience. A few years ago I read a book by Eugene England, “Converted to the Christ Through the Book of Mormon”. This gives the reader a feel for what a true experience with the Holy Ghost is like.

Cowboy said: “do you also believe we must study out the tenets and literature of any other faith in order to gain a testimony. If not, then why should one begin with the intent of believing in Mormonism rather than other faiths. In other words, could it be reasonably argued that the reason I am not a Muslim is because I have not studied it with the intent of getting a testimony.”

In my opinion, birth into this world is not an accident. I believe every birth has the Lord’s hand in it. The Lord tells us His house is a house of order. This being the case, then I would assume the family, country, religion, and culture we’re born into was part of the plan for those thus born. I also believe that the Lord “plants” those who are receptive to the restored church in every country and circumstance. In other words, the Lord gives us opportunities based on our birth but that doesn’t mean we’ll all embrace His gifts. I believe it is a great blessing to be born with exposure to the Mormon church. I accept it has the Lord’s restored church. But that doesn’t mean the Lord doesn’t set the stage for people to become members of a wide variety of churches. Obviously, He knows someone born into a Muslim county is going be drawn to the faith of their culture. Not everyone is supposed to be a Mormon. We’re all at different places on the path to eternal life and I believe the Lord uses many churches to accomplish His purposes. Temple work is His blessing to all mankind to become members of His church–The Church of the First Born.

The doctrine of multiple glories is not restricted to the next life.

Jared:

If it is okay I would like to jump back in here, and echo the sentiments of some comments on the Fair Blogsite from some time ago.

Why would it be, in your opinion, more virtuous for someone to approach The Book of Mormon from the position of trying to gain a testimony, than it is to study it’s history?

More to the point, do you also believe we must study out the tenets and literature of any other faith in order to gain a testimony of that religion?
If not, then why should one begin with the intent of believing in Mormonism rather than other faiths?
In other words, could it be reasonably argued that the reason I am not a Muslim is because I have not studied it with the intent of getting a testimony of Islam?

Why should a testimony be desirous prior to acquiring it.
Could not this desire, be seen as a questionable factor towards confirmation bias?

I’ll have to read “Nine O’Clock in the Morning”. Thanks for mentioning it.

I can’t speak for anyone else but myself. If the Lord chooses to give a minister a blessing that is up to Him. The Book of Mormon relates experiences that are compatible with what happened to the minister. Laman and Lemuel experienced many manifestation of things spiritual even though they didn’t appear to be “worthy” of it. They saw an angel, heard the voice of the Lord, and were witness to many miracles. In the Book of Helaman the Lord gave a powerful manifestation to men who were ready to kill the prophets Lehi and Nephi.

I’ve known many people who have read the Book of Mormon and relate the same experience as you do. I don’t know the answer for sure. I suspect it has to do with the way we approach the Lord. He tells us to diligently seek. To diligently seek means more than to merely seek. When the word diligently is used to emphasize the kind of seeking the Lord requires before a desired blessing can be obtained, it’s telling us it won’t be easy. Obtainable, yes, but the Lord will make the judgment when we have risen to the level of “diligently seeking”. Then, and only then, will a blessing be granted. As every missionary knows, not everyone who seeks-obtains. In you account of reading the Book of Mormon numerous times without results you didn’t indicate anything about prayer or fasting.

GB Smith asked: “My question is why are your experiences different and why do they lead you to the conclusions you’ve come to.”

Once again, I can’t say for sure why the Lord gave me the experiences He did. He tells us, “I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.” This not only instructs each of us to forgive one another, but it also tells us something about the Lord. He is in charge, but at the same time we know he is perfect so we don’t need to worry about how He fulfills His word.

Regarding the conclusions I’ve reached: I would say that any rational being whose experienced what I have couldn’t reach any other conclusion.

I’m aware of the challenges church history and doctrine give to those who are inclined to study. I’m likewise inclined. I’ve studied it all and can understand the power of disbelief that it can present. However, the Lord will help us deal with all of this if we seek His help. There is abundant testimony to this help from many church members who spend their lives studying church history and doctrine.

I believe if those who are surrounding themselves with reasons to disbelieve, would give as much energy to seeking a testimony of the Book of Mormon in the Lord’s way, they would acquire a testimony from the Holy Ghost and their disbelief would be healed.

You didn’t say how your son felt about the Book of Mormon after reading it with you.

You say it like you’re joking. >:(

I agree that for some being more vocal in certain #1 ward cultures can create a negative backlash. In addition, one shouldn’t feel forced to put up a negative front and hide their true beliefs. I also believe that there are social niceties and contextual/environmental considerations to be made when prioritizing what to share when.

I disagree with the view that one should jump into disclosing ones LM perspectives in a radical fashion. Rather the idea of mindful and continual slow spreading and blossoming of LM perspectives is more warranted.

Like the quote by George Albert Smith I believe (Paraphrasing) “I believe you can get someone to do anything…if you can get them to do it at all, by loving them into doing it.”

Often too fast and too soon creates resistance.

RE: #130

I recently started reading a book titled “Nine O’Clock in the Morning”. It’s about an episcopal priest and his experience with the baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues. His description of what he felt is nearly identical to what you describe.

Secondly, my feeling about the Book of Mormon is the opposite of yours. It started with reading it out loud with my children. We read through it twice but it only seemed to confirm my feelings about it. I read it again as a response to President Hinckley’s challenge but the result was the same and when out of the country last year I tried one more time and only got as far as the passages about horses, etc.

My question is why are your experiences different and why do they lead you to the conclusions you’ve come to.

Youre right, I didn’t even think about that.

Thanks, and you are welcome.

I think we have made our points. I don’t feel that there is anything I can add to the conservation that won’t take us back to place we have already been. Thanks for the dialogue.

That is a paradox. The way I resolved it was by calling on the Lord. As I said many times, because of the experiences I’ve been given they trump the challenges posed by church history and like things. There’s no contest.

Church leaders, today, and throughout sacred history have shown they are not infallible.

We live in a fallen world. That means we’re spiritually dead and the only way back is through the doctrine of Christ.

#133 Ray– do you think President Monson knows with certainty that the Lord’s lives and that He restored the church through the prophet Joseph Smith? If the answer is yes, as I would expect, then his live is a testimony of certainty.

This is where Joseph Smith was when the Lord called him to be the prophet of the restoration. With additional scripture, prophets, and authority the LDS church has the answer we need to travel the labyrinth of mortality.

One of the presidents of the United States asked Joseph Smith what was the difference between the Mormons and other churches. Joseph responded, we have the Holy Ghost.

With the Holy Ghost’s help the scriptures can be understood as the Lord gave them.

The first part, yes – and I am glad; the second part, no – and I am glad.

Quote 2)”Spending too much time trying to figure out the problems in church history and other subjects of the same ilk will keep you wandering in the labyrinth longer than necessary.”

Jared, how do you reconcile these two injunctions? Should we study the words of those The Lord has called to lead his Church, and still not waste our time in studying the past. Much of what constitutes Church history, particularly where there is controversy, lies wholly in the words of those in whom The Lord at one time called to lead his Church. Today the leaders say very little with absolute certainty, and nothing which is unique from mainstream conservative Christianity.

Everybody thinks their own interpretation of scriptures is the correct interpretation, yet there are thousands of religious denominations that “use the scriptures as [their] criteria.” Apparently the scriptures aren’t so cut and dried. If they were, we’d all agree.

Good question. This brings us to the Doctrine of Christ. The first step is baptism. Next the follower of Christ needs to focus, even rivet their attention on obtaining the promised gift of the Holy Ghost. From my observation and my experience members rarely pursue this gift as they should. In my case, I wandered away from the church and was lost. For reason not entirely clear to me, the Lord, responded to my prayer and desire to know if the Book of Mormon was true. I told Him I would read it. Before I had time to even obtain a copy I found myself in the presence of an evil spirit and it was only through prayer that I was delivered. I can’t put into words what it is like be given that kind of experience. There is nothing subtle about it. Its like being assaulted by a would be killer. I was left knowing with a certainty that there are evil spirits and that God hears prayers.

I did what I could to put my life in order. About six years later I found myself in a crisis. I plead with the Lord for help. I asked the Lord to forgive me of my sins. I found myself praying in a way that I knew was something special. I was given the gift of prayer. After struggling in mighty prayer the Lord forgave me of my sins. This was manifest to me by fire and the Holy Ghost. This is not a subtle experience. It can’t be explained away by those who receive it. All doubt is replaced by certainty.

All of us need to receive the baptism of the Spirit in order to have a complete baptism. Baptism by water is half a baptism. When a follower of Christ reaches this point on the path he is very different than he was before. The mighty change allows one to have greater access to the Lord. This is the message of the Book of Mormon.

Andrew, I know as well as any of the writers in the Book of Mormon what path I am on. I hope I can be faithful and fulfill the next part of my journey and that is to receive the 2nd Comforter. I am a witness to these things and I am trying in mildness and meekness to relate these things to others.

I would say that there are many members in the bloggernacle who are on the path to receiving a remission of their sins and thereby obtaining the gift of the Holy Ghost. I hope to encourage them on. I saw a labyrinth recently that was a real work of art in its intricacy. It reminded of the bloggernacle and the challenges facing church members of our day.

I’ve attempted to answer your question by saying the path is found in the Book of Mormon. Become an expert on this book and, the words of those the Lord has called to lead His church. Learn and understand the Doctrine of Christ. Spend the bulk of your time in that effort. Spending too much time trying to figure out the problems in church history and other subjects of the same ilk will keep you wandering in the labyrinth longer than necessary. If a crisis develops in your life call upon the Lord and trust in Him and lean not unto your own understanding. Listen to the voices of those who are on the path that call upon you to hold to the iron rod. Those who are caught up in the labyrinth of the great and spacious building are not on the correct path. You will know those who are on the correct path by what their spending their time on and what their saying. Their message will be Christ centered. Some of the most difficult parts of the labyrinth to master are where TBM are teaching doctrines that will land you in the Terrestrial Kingdom. I’ll end it here.