I think you are on to something….. ditto what Ray said.

It has made me think a lot of your words, and how individual the meeting can be. I think I agree with that now. However, the solution wasn’t to just tell myself to stop whining and start coming prepared to worship.

I think unintentionally, outside of thinking of church meetings, I have just been trying to get closer to God and have had good experiences lately. Coincidence that now my church meeting is all of a sudden “more meaningful”? Hmmm..

Perhaps the preparation to make meetings more meaningful is not about the meetings at all, or about how leaders focus on speaker performance, or listeners focus on good attitudes going into the meeting, but instead, outside the meetings the individual is striving to know God, and leaders are reaching out with love to show them God loves them.

Its kind of a self-fulfilling thing…when I’m in a good place and find I’m striving to do good, I like being at church and get stuff out of it. When I’m struggling, people bug me.

Absolutely true, no argument there. There is always room for improvement. The church used to train the youth in speaking and have speech contests.

You quoted Elder Haight’s talk about the responsibility of the leaders, but I used the President Kimball quote in my post which is just as valid, IMO.

The worship portion of our meeting is the Sacrament and how we approach that as individuals is strictly up to each of us. Since that is the main purpose of the meeting, I think there is also much improvement to be gained. As that part improves, I think the other parts improve.

I guess we could take a poll and see, but I don’t think that is commonly true. However, there are some GC talks that are dry (as you said) and seem to be a better read in the Ensign than listening to a monotone delivery, but there is never an entire conference of them, in my experience.

I am also not suggesting we need professional speakers. Yes, everyone gets their turn, and some are just not as gifted speakers as others. That is EXACTLY why the leaders have the onus to make the meetings spiritual. Prepare speakers, select topics and give materials that guide speakers on how to deliver a talk. Balance youth or new members or those who are dry with others that help make sure Christ is being taught, and as powerfully as possible.

In missionary work, time and money was spent on Preach My Gospel because Missionaries needed to be trained to teach better, not put the responsibility on investigators to be golden.

Have you not heard the brethren talk recently on Fast and Testimony meetings? Children who like to play with the mic and say they love mommy is cute but is NOT meaningful to the congregations spiritual uplifting. The brethren have lovingly sent this message and people needed to be taught that those children should practice testimonies at home or in primary and share them in sacrament meeting only when they are ready to deliver an honest testimony. We are not expected as a congregation to come prepared to hear travel logs or children talking and it be OUR responsibility to gain something out of that. Sure we can be Christ-like and understand some testimonies are at different levels, and not all speakers are as gifted as Jeff, but the leaders need to guide the meeting to make it as meaningful as possible. It is the bishop’s responsibility. It is in the handbook.

I don’t think enough bishops do that now. They call someone to speak and give them a topic and that is it. There should be training and coaching on how to deliver a class lesson (teacher improvement courses) as well as speakers prepared to deliver a talk, as well as how the congregation should come prepared to worship. And that coaching message should not be, “If you’re bored, it is your own fault because we can’t do anything about it. Accept mediocrity in the church and don’t murmur about it, you bunch of whiners.”

One can look beyond the performance ONLY WHEN THERE IS A MESSAGE to focus on.

While I am agreeing with you and I also took the responsbility very seriously, how do you deal with the situation that some members just aren’t gifted speakers? They have just as much right to speak in church as those who are good at speaking. It seems to me that the onus is as much on the members sitting in the congregation to understand the intent of the message as much as it is on the leadership and speaker to deliver it.

I am also afraid that the same folks who are eternally bored at sacrament meeting are likewise bored during General Conference. Let’s face it some of the GAs aren’t great speakers either. If you just take Elder Wirthlin and Presdient Hunter, they were rather dry, but delivered wonderful messages.

Once has to look beyond the “performance,” and focus on the message.

When I sat on the pulpit, I took that responsibility seriously. I even interrupted a speaker once to have him sit down and I would bear testimony instead and end the meeting early. That came after he said, “Wow, I just finished my talk and still have 10 minutes left. I guess I could read it again.” …that is not the congregations responsibility to be prepared to listen to a speaker like that, it was our responsibility to stop that train wreck from happening, and we did.

“The object, of course, is not merely to hold a meeting of the required length but to plan and execute each one in a way that will provide the spiritual uplift and the sound doctrinal teaching which the Church members need in these critical times. Toward this end, speakers should be urged to relate faith-promoting experiences, to bear testimony, to expound doctrinal subjects, and to speak in a spirit of love and brotherhood.”

I know what you’re saying, Jeff. I’m just saying I go to be edified and really want to be uplifted. This last week the high councilor really nailed it and gave a great talk. I recognize those when I see them. I am saying I see them too infrequently and it makes me sad. That is just my experience in the area I’m living in now.

If you are sayingthat it goes both ways, that it is a combination of the leaders and congregation which make the meeting meaningful, I am in agreement with that. but, if you see the tone of the thread, you’ll see most focused on what they call boredom, which I would call simply being unprepared to worship.

The boring nature of this thread is similar to the lack of substance in many sacrament meetings. Just a bunch of opinions, you said this, I think that, I don’t have a problem you have a problem… where is the substance? If many are “whining” – you can tell them to stop whining, or you can realize after enough feedback, maybe there are some valid points to consider.

Here is D.B. Haight’s words on the matter (this was back in the 80′s so it ain’t a new topic):

“The object, of course, is not merely to hold a meeting of the required length but to plan and execute each one in a way that will provide the spiritual uplift and the sound doctrinal teaching which the Church members need in these critical times. Toward this end, speakers should be urged to relate faith-promoting experiences, to bear testimony, to expound doctrinal subjects, and to speak in a spirit of love and brotherhood. At the same time, they should be urged to avoid travelogues, argumentations, criticism, and the discussion of controversial subjects which have no direct bearing on the saving principles of the gospel. In planning your Sacrament Meetings, you should also make good use of choirs and the available musical talent to add variety and interest.”

It seems to me that we need to frequently reemphasize fundamental principles so we never lose sight of the purpose and moorings of our faith. …

We encourage local Church leaders to see that the sacrament meetings of the Church are directed and guided by the Holy Spirit. The spirit in our sacrament meetings should be a matter that is continually emphasized and stressed by stake presidencies and bishoprics. Our members must be reminded of the need for a worshipful atmosphere. Bringing investigators to irreverent meetings has proven embarrassing to our members and missionaries.

…The primary objective of a bishopric for sacrament meeting is to see that the Saints are edified and strengthened in their faith, and that through their prayerful efforts and planning, the Holy Spirit is felt in their sacrament meetings.”
-Ensign, April 1988

Clearly the members need to be prepared and be reverent, but the focus of Elder Haight’s words were the leaders need to focus on preparing to have it EDIFY the congregation who is coming to seek edification in times of need. You can tell me its my fault if I don’t feel the Spirit, but all I can say is I’m honestly seeking for it, craving for it…but too often I just pull out my scriptures and read cause I don’t get enough out of it.

We have a responsibility as members to do the same thing today. Revelation comes to us many times as we’ve prepared our hearts and mind for the revelation. This means praying for the speakers who will speak in church, praying for our hearts to be open to the Spirit, praying for discernment and humility, reading scriptures during sacrement and relfecting on the grace and mercy of Jesus, reading scriptures during the week preparing to take the sacrament, living our lives in humility each day, being true Saints for Jesus.

If we’re doing these things then I’m confident we’ll have a “born-again” experience every Sunday regardless of who’s speaking

Now, I do disagree that work leadership paradigms cannot translate successfully into church leadership. While there are differences, often good leadership is just good leadership — in any setting. For instance, in one stake I lived in, they radically restructured the home teaching program based on supply/demand market principles (of course with prayer and fasting as well!). It was very, very successful. Similarly, some of the most helpful training I ever received on my mission was given by an ex-Harvard Business School professor. He approached missionary work by collecting data, and performing group “case studies” examining missionary work, often using basic principles of economics. Again, the trainings were successful; their conclusions were sound, and their recommendations worked well when applied.

I think poor Sacrament Meetings (and poor church meetings in general) are similar to other kinds of poverty. While we can gain experience, receive the Lord’s blessings, and learn from being poor, there is no special virtue in poverty per se. The Church’s approach to poverty, then, is a wise one. We emphasize education and self improvement and offer many resources to this end. Similarly, I think that “Quit yer whinin’!” and other similar messages, seemingly intended to encourage the congregation to pull themselves up by their spiritual bootstraps, might not be the most effective approach to use in a ward setting — particularly, when we might instead offer aid and possibilities for improvement.

A few suggestions which I think might be of use:
1. The Bishopric should carefully choose the themes, scriptures, and subjects for meetings well in advance. Specifically, meetings week-to-week might be chosen to work together as a kind of spiritual story-arc built up over a few months. (My personal preference would be “No Talks About Other Talks.” Regurgitated GC addresses are usually fairly painful. Rather, a talk should be assigned on the same subject, and the speaker pointed to the GC address as one resource to use.)

2. Assignments to speak should go out earlier — perhaps a month or more in advance — with periodic check-ups to make clear to the speaker that the extra time is not for the sake of longer procrastination.

3. The ward library should be augmented with good resources for decent scriptural interpretation. This doesn’t need to be a massive expense; a few, well-selected volumes can make a world of difference. (Perhaps a philanthropically-minded member of the ward could be approached for help; he/she would, of course, get a nice “Donated by” sticker in the cover, if they wanted.)

4. A short-term class (similar to a temple or marriage-prep class) should be organized. The curriculum could be put together by the strongest teachers/speakers in the ward and be approved by the bishop. In an eight-week session, a few couples (4 or 5) could go through basic principles of preparation, interpretation, research, rhetorical tools, and speaking — writing a talk and a lesson as a model for future assignments. The ward could rotate through the class, creating a pool of better-trained speakers to draw from. The teacher(s) of the class would also then be available as a resource for those who are preparing talks. Class-discussion could include (charitable) postmortems of that week’s addresses, and others from various meetings (perhaps particularly successful GC talks) for the sake of real-world examples.

5. As was suggested by Ray, it would be very important for the Bishop/leaders to not make these efforts a secret. Let the ward know (early and often) that they are concerned about the quality of the meetings (very bluntly, if necessary). Perhaps a special, 5th-Sunday, combined meeting could be on the subject of why adequate preparation is so important, in conjunction with a ward fast on the following Sunday, and frequent reminders.This way the sacrifices offered up at church would not only be the patience of the congregation with a boring meeting, but the more-careful, more-thoughtful preparation of those who present either talks or music, and, in turn, better personal preparation by entire ward.

Those are just a few ideas that I think might be helpful. I’m sure someone wiser than I am could add many more!

I take it as my mission on Sundays to make sure that if someone comes to Church looking for Christ, I’m providing as many opportunities as possible to find him.

Perfectly said, Andrew.

I suspect you are right. What apparently didn’t come through in my post is that it is a combination of the members and the leadership. Ray pointed out what his leadership did and I think that helped the members act differently as well.

I purposely used the word “whine” to provoke the discussion because of its unique connotation.

Hawk: I am not sure how Jesus would play to the MTV generation. He would not be boring, but would the people be bored nonetheless?

It seems you think that the members should be “acted upon” rather than have to “act.” While you quote the Savior’s invitation, you need to remember that the first word is COME. We are required to come to the Savior and ask and He will give us rest. I might remind you of the quote I used in my post regarding Sacrament Meeting,

“Thou shalt offer a sacrifice unto the Lord thy God in righteousness, even that of a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And that thou mayest more fully keep thyself unspotted from the world, thou shalt go to the house of prayer and offer up thy sacraments upon my holy day; For verily this is a day appointed unto you to rest from your labors, and to pay thy devotions unto the Most High; (Doctrine and Covenants 59:8 – 10)

It seems we diverge at the point where the Savior asks us to offer up a sacrifice. Our action is required to invoke His action.

The point of discussion here is not, “what is the #1 thing that is causing people to leave the Church”. I am responding to the argument that is calling for members to “stop their whining about Sacrament meeting”. My point is that if you push it back to the congregation and blame them the affects will be adverse. Jesus didn’t say, “shut-up you sissies, mabey if you did something to pitch in around here things wouldn’t be so bad for you”. Rather he said:

28Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. (Matthew 11:28-29)

Can you imagine how effective he would have been had he offered to provide “rest unto your souls”, but no one ever found that. As shepherds, as such we like to claim, this is the charge to provide “rest”. I agree with you the task is hard, yes Jesus taught accountability, he also assumed a lot by declaring that he is The Good Shepherd. I am not trying to be overly critical of your plight, but would encourage you to try and work miracles, inspire others, that’s what religion is all about.

I’ve seen it once or twice