Comments on: My Perspective on Polygamy http://mormonmatters.org/2009/05/17/my-perspective-on-polygamy/ A weekly podcast exploring Mormon culture and current events. Wed, 23 May 2012 18:22:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: ashbash http://mormonmatters.org/2009/05/17/my-perspective-on-polygamy/#comment-158241 ashbash Thu, 30 Jun 2011 06:09:00 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5360#comment-158241  KG McB: Exactly. Thou shall not covet another man's wife. People are saying that women being jealous of the other wives is a base behavior--marriage is holy, and that feeling of anger is righteous I believe, because someone has intruded on a sacred bond. So many members are comfortable with being content that they'll just never know what happened with JS picking up other men's wives. But our church is based on this man--I need to find something to reconcile this, because this could not be and is not Godly. I don't think it's something we weren't ready for--I believe it is in complete violation with the designs of God concerning men, women, and marriage.  KG McB: Exactly. Thou shall not covet another man’s wife. People are saying that women being jealous of the other wives is a base behavior–marriage is holy, and that feeling of anger is righteous I believe, because someone has intruded on a sacred bond. So many members are comfortable with being content that they’ll just never know what happened with JS picking up other men’s wives. But our church is based on this man–I need to find something to reconcile this, because this could not be and is not Godly. I don’t think it’s something we weren’t ready for–I believe it is in complete violation with the designs of God concerning men, women, and marriage.

]]> By: Establishing the tribes of Israel: the real reason for plural marriage « LDS Anarchy http://mormonmatters.org/2009/05/17/my-perspective-on-polygamy/#comment-93893 Establishing the tribes of Israel: the real reason for plural marriage « LDS Anarchy Fri, 31 Jul 2009 00:48:59 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5360#comment-93893 [...] he had two recent posts on polygamy. (See My perspective on polygamy—he also has the same post at Mormon Matters—and Bushman’s Perspective on Polygamy, Alger and Snow.) I was impressed by the number of [...] [...] he had two recent posts on polygamy. (See My perspective on polygamy—he also has the same post at Mormon Matters—and Bushman’s Perspective on Polygamy, Alger and Snow.) I was impressed by the number of [...]

]]> By: MH http://mormonmatters.org/2009/05/17/my-perspective-on-polygamy/#comment-75964 MH Thu, 21 May 2009 02:26:57 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5360#comment-75964 Jared, I know you don't intentionally try to come off as offensive, but your comment in 98 did seem quite judgmental, IMO. Now, I did comment on your question, and I left several questions for you to respond to in both 101 and 112. Care to tackle them? Jared,

I know you don’t intentionally try to come off as offensive, but your comment in 98 did seem quite judgmental, IMO. Now, I did comment on your question, and I left several questions for you to respond to in both 101 and 112. Care to tackle them?

]]> By: Jared http://mormonmatters.org/2009/05/17/my-perspective-on-polygamy/#comment-75959 Jared Thu, 21 May 2009 01:48:49 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5360#comment-75959 #112 MH-- Thanks for reading and commenting on Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner. I enjoy reading your post and commentary. I may not agree with you, but please don't think of me as an antagonist. #112 MH–

Thanks for reading and commenting on Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner. I enjoy reading your post and commentary. I may not agree with you, but please don’t think of me as an antagonist.

]]> By: Dexter http://mormonmatters.org/2009/05/17/my-perspective-on-polygamy/#comment-75893 Dexter Wed, 20 May 2009 19:03:27 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5360#comment-75893 And Aboz, I was never offended at all. In fact, I appreciate your sincere concern for my happiness. I just don't think counsel to others about how to find God fits here. And the whole recipe of first believe and obey, and then you will find Him, is a principle we are all aware of and we each can choose whether to utilize it in our personal lives. I hope you don't leave the site of this. You certainly never offended me and Ray clarified that his post was about deleted comments, not yours. And Aboz, I was never offended at all. In fact, I appreciate your sincere concern for my happiness. I just don’t think counsel to others about how to find God fits here. And the whole recipe of first believe and obey, and then you will find Him, is a principle we are all aware of and we each can choose whether to utilize it in our personal lives. I hope you don’t leave the site of this. You certainly never offended me and Ray clarified that his post was about deleted comments, not yours.

]]> By: Brjones http://mormonmatters.org/2009/05/17/my-perspective-on-polygamy/#comment-75891 Brjones Wed, 20 May 2009 18:46:35 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5360#comment-75891 Come on, Aboz, don't be like that. I think it was just a misunderstanding between you and Dexter. Obviously your point was that you can't conclusively make a determination as to the truth of the doctrine if you haven't TRULY put it to the test, which, in your opinion, includes complete obedience. I agree that from Dexter's posts it seems unlikely that he is currently striving to live every gospel principle, although I could be wrong. I think the frustration on Dexter's end probably stemmed from the fact that you don't know what Dexter has been through in the past. He might have been an active member his entire life, served a mission, and otherwise tried his absolute hardest to live the gospel completely, and eventually decided that even at that, the church wasn't true. Your statement seemed to imply that someone like Dexter wasn't really qualified to speak to the truthfulness of the church because he wasn't living it. That might not be what you meant, but that's how it came off, and it seemed a little judgmental, because it seems to presuppose that he never had tried to live it, and that, it seems to me, is where the frustration came from. Either way, in my experience, most of the serious posters on this board are pretty level headed, and if someone gets their nose out of joint, a little clarification is usually all that's needed to assuage any hard feelings. Come on, Aboz, don’t be like that. I think it was just a misunderstanding between you and Dexter. Obviously your point was that you can’t conclusively make a determination as to the truth of the doctrine if you haven’t TRULY put it to the test, which, in your opinion, includes complete obedience. I agree that from Dexter’s posts it seems unlikely that he is currently striving to live every gospel principle, although I could be wrong. I think the frustration on Dexter’s end probably stemmed from the fact that you don’t know what Dexter has been through in the past. He might have been an active member his entire life, served a mission, and otherwise tried his absolute hardest to live the gospel completely, and eventually decided that even at that, the church wasn’t true. Your statement seemed to imply that someone like Dexter wasn’t really qualified to speak to the truthfulness of the church because he wasn’t living it. That might not be what you meant, but that’s how it came off, and it seemed a little judgmental, because it seems to presuppose that he never had tried to live it, and that, it seems to me, is where the frustration came from. Either way, in my experience, most of the serious posters on this board are pretty level headed, and if someone gets their nose out of joint, a little clarification is usually all that’s needed to assuage any hard feelings.

]]> By: Dexter http://mormonmatters.org/2009/05/17/my-perspective-on-polygamy/#comment-75889 Dexter Wed, 20 May 2009 18:38:45 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5360#comment-75889 Aboz, I hope you don't make good on what you said. The point I was trying to make is that my personal life, and my level of obedience, and my spiritual experiences are simply not something I am going to share with strangers on this site. Well, I did make an exception for the post about Ray's son going on a mission, in which I wrote a long and sincere comment sharing advice based on my personal experiences. But that post asked for advice. Most posts are about a theory or principle or historical event, and in those cases, I don't think personal experiences or advice to others belongs. Thus, I try to limit my comments to logic and facts. Obviously I will share personal opinions based on my experience in this world but I just don't think advising others to pray more or read their scriptures has a place here. We all know that is what a church leader would suggest. But this site, from what I can tell, is about discussing these issues without the sunday school blanket assumptions that God is behind all this and everything will be ok. I think the best way to learn and grow on this site is to take a different approach by trying to limit our assumptions. Aboz, I hope you don’t make good on what you said. The point I was trying to make is that my personal life, and my level of obedience, and my spiritual experiences are simply not something I am going to share with strangers on this site. Well, I did make an exception for the post about Ray’s son going on a mission, in which I wrote a long and sincere comment sharing advice based on my personal experiences. But that post asked for advice. Most posts are about a theory or principle or historical event, and in those cases, I don’t think personal experiences or advice to others belongs. Thus, I try to limit my comments to logic and facts. Obviously I will share personal opinions based on my experience in this world but I just don’t think advising others to pray more or read their scriptures has a place here. We all know that is what a church leader would suggest. But this site, from what I can tell, is about discussing these issues without the sunday school blanket assumptions that God is behind all this and everything will be ok. I think the best way to learn and grow on this site is to take a different approach by trying to limit our assumptions.

]]> By: adamf http://mormonmatters.org/2009/05/17/my-perspective-on-polygamy/#comment-75883 adamf Wed, 20 May 2009 18:03:01 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5360#comment-75883 Really hawk, it's spelled either kumbaya, or kum ba ya, get it right. Sheesh. ;) Really hawk, it’s spelled either kumbaya, or kum ba ya, get it right. Sheesh. ;)

]]> By: hawkgrrrl http://mormonmatters.org/2009/05/17/my-perspective-on-polygamy/#comment-75882 hawkgrrrl Wed, 20 May 2009 17:57:36 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5360#comment-75882 Kum-bay-ya, folks. Kum-bay-ya, folks.

]]> By: adamf http://mormonmatters.org/2009/05/17/my-perspective-on-polygamy/#comment-75881 adamf Wed, 20 May 2009 17:48:27 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5360#comment-75881 Fwiw, a post of mine once started on defining the church, and eventually disintegrated into a discussion on mayonnaise. ;) Fwiw, a post of mine once started on defining the church, and eventually disintegrated into a discussion on mayonnaise. ;)

]]> By: adamf http://mormonmatters.org/2009/05/17/my-perspective-on-polygamy/#comment-75880 adamf Wed, 20 May 2009 17:46:55 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5360#comment-75880 "It always seems to disintegrate into a pile of BS every time I get on here" Sorry Aboz (sincerely), but I couldn't help but chuckle at this. “It always seems to disintegrate into a pile of BS every time I get on here”

Sorry Aboz (sincerely), but I couldn’t help but chuckle at this.

]]> By: Aboz http://mormonmatters.org/2009/05/17/my-perspective-on-polygamy/#comment-75875 Aboz Wed, 20 May 2009 17:31:27 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5360#comment-75875 I don't know why I waste time on these forums. Dexter, you can say whatever you want too, or think whatever you want, but you are the one that gave the impression that you weren't doing any of the "churchy" stuff and that you were going off into some atheistic thing. It didn't take much to assume that you weren't, and I apologize if you are still doing your church duties. My mistake. It always seems to disintegrate into a pile of BS every time I get on here, no matter how nice I try to be. I should know better. Aboz is now retiring from Mormon Matters. I don’t know why I waste time on these forums. Dexter, you can say whatever you want too, or think whatever you want, but you are the one that gave the impression that you weren’t doing any of the “churchy” stuff and that you were going off into some atheistic thing. It didn’t take much to assume that you weren’t, and I apologize if you are still doing your church duties. My mistake. It always seems to disintegrate into a pile of BS every time I get on here, no matter how nice I try to be. I should know better. Aboz is now retiring from Mormon Matters.

]]> By: KG McB http://mormonmatters.org/2009/05/17/my-perspective-on-polygamy/#comment-75799 KG McB Wed, 20 May 2009 06:01:12 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5360#comment-75799 ...make sure you use Ray's strategy and put nudity in the title, then you don't have to followup with anything more than an introductory paragraph and the thread takes on its own life, right? just joking. Your posts are well thought out and robust. I just joke about how active things get on the polygamy topic, but I deeply enjoy reading your material and look forward to reading about South American (nude) models. …make sure you use Ray’s strategy and put nudity in the title, then you don’t have to followup with anything more than an introductory paragraph and the thread takes on its own life, right?

just joking. Your posts are well thought out and robust. I just joke about how active things get on the polygamy topic, but I deeply enjoy reading your material and look forward to reading about South American (nude) models.

]]> By: Mormon Heretic http://mormonmatters.org/2009/05/17/my-perspective-on-polygamy/#comment-75794 Mormon Heretic Wed, 20 May 2009 05:49:13 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5360#comment-75794 Yes KG, you're right. I'm going to have to keep a list of all the posts I keep promising. I've got South American models, science vs religion, and more polygamy on the docket. And I just found a new (probably controversial) BoM theory that I'm pretty sure nobody has heard of. Yes KG, you’re right. I’m going to have to keep a list of all the posts I keep promising. I’ve got South American models, science vs religion, and more polygamy on the docket. And I just found a new (probably controversial) BoM theory that I’m pretty sure nobody has heard of.

]]> By: KG McB http://mormonmatters.org/2009/05/17/my-perspective-on-polygamy/#comment-75790 KG McB Wed, 20 May 2009 05:35:57 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5360#comment-75790 MH, to stay on topic, I think you started with this was an idea you wanted to look into and post your thoughts as you read new material. Maybe we need the next injection of new material to get us going? just a thought. MH, to stay on topic, I think you started with this was an idea you wanted to look into and post your thoughts as you read new material.

Maybe we need the next injection of new material to get us going? just a thought.

]]> By: MH http://mormonmatters.org/2009/05/17/my-perspective-on-polygamy/#comment-75787 MH Wed, 20 May 2009 05:08:59 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5360#comment-75787 Brjones, That's a tall order. Most of the comments have been saying, "if we can't trust the prophet on this issue, why should we trust him on anything else?" While the first comments were generally respectful, it did seem to turn into a spitting contest at times. Obviously there are many answers to that question. I'd recommend comments 20, 34, 45, 46, 51, 61, 62, 100, 110, 112 for a quick overview. (Of course, others can add to the list.) Brjones,

That’s a tall order. Most of the comments have been saying, “if we can’t trust the prophet on this issue, why should we trust him on anything else?” While the first comments were generally respectful, it did seem to turn into a spitting contest at times.

Obviously there are many answers to that question. I’d recommend comments 20, 34, 45, 46, 51, 61, 62, 100, 110, 112 for a quick overview. (Of course, others can add to the list.)

]]> By: MH http://mormonmatters.org/2009/05/17/my-perspective-on-polygamy/#comment-75719 MH Wed, 20 May 2009 01:07:50 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5360#comment-75719 If we can't stay on topic, then we should close down the thread. If we can’t stay on topic, then we should close down the thread.

]]> By: Ray http://mormonmatters.org/2009/05/17/my-perspective-on-polygamy/#comment-75718 Ray Wed, 20 May 2009 00:57:31 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5360#comment-75718 FOR THE RECORD: We almost never delete comments on this blog - almost never. My comment followed Aboz's comment, and that is unfortunate in one way: It made it look like I was talking to Aboz alone. I wasn't. We have had to delete at least three comments on this thread, and Aboz's wasn't one of them. It was a minor example, but it was the fact that there have been multiple comments that were nothing but personal attacks that prompted my comment. The deleted comments were horrible - and they came from BOTH "sides" of this issue. Aboz, sincerely, my comment was not directed at you. I apologize for that impression. FOR THE RECORD:

We almost never delete comments on this blog – almost never.

My comment followed Aboz’s comment, and that is unfortunate in one way: It made it look like I was talking to Aboz alone. I wasn’t. We have had to delete at least three comments on this thread, and Aboz’s wasn’t one of them. It was a minor example, but it was the fact that there have been multiple comments that were nothing but personal attacks that prompted my comment. The deleted comments were horrible – and they came from BOTH “sides” of this issue.

Aboz, sincerely, my comment was not directed at you. I apologize for that impression.

]]> By: Brjones http://mormonmatters.org/2009/05/17/my-perspective-on-polygamy/#comment-75716 Brjones Wed, 20 May 2009 00:46:22 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5360#comment-75716 I've been away and haven't been able to keep up with the comments to the current thread. Could someone please summarize them for me in one post? Thanks. I’ve been away and haven’t been able to keep up with the comments to the current thread. Could someone please summarize them for me in one post? Thanks.

]]> By: Dexter http://mormonmatters.org/2009/05/17/my-perspective-on-polygamy/#comment-75710 Dexter Wed, 20 May 2009 00:03:05 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5360#comment-75710 Aboz, I believe you judged me and then Ray pointed it out. I don't really have a problem with you judging me. You can say whatever you like. But you spoke of my obedience when you know nothing of my level of obedience. That is the real problem, in my opinion. Not that you judged, but that you are speaking of a subject that you know nothing about. This is why I think Ray asked you to stick to the topic. If you want to discuss the points I made, I would happily engage you, but when you comment on someone's obedience it leaves us all nowhere to go with the discussion. Aboz, I believe you judged me and then Ray pointed it out. I don’t really have a problem with you judging me. You can say whatever you like. But you spoke of my obedience when you know nothing of my level of obedience. That is the real problem, in my opinion. Not that you judged, but that you are speaking of a subject that you know nothing about. This is why I think Ray asked you to stick to the topic. If you want to discuss the points I made, I would happily engage you, but when you comment on someone’s obedience it leaves us all nowhere to go with the discussion.

]]> By: GBSmith http://mormonmatters.org/2009/05/17/my-perspective-on-polygamy/#comment-75704 GBSmith Tue, 19 May 2009 23:40:17 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5360#comment-75704 Aboz, in the spirit of Ray, blessed be his name, nobody's judging your character or personal righteousness. It's just that these digressions are not helpful and detract from the discussion. Holden offered you an olive leaf as a way to move on and not let things get personal. A very civil thing to do, IMHO. Aboz, in the spirit of Ray, blessed be his name, nobody’s judging your character or personal righteousness. It’s just that these digressions are not helpful and detract from the discussion. Holden offered you an olive leaf as a way to move on and not let things get personal. A very civil thing to do, IMHO.

]]> By: Aboz http://mormonmatters.org/2009/05/17/my-perspective-on-polygamy/#comment-75702 Aboz Tue, 19 May 2009 23:35:01 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5360#comment-75702 I think I'm quite done with overly sensitive souls here that are now finding fault with my thinking. It is so typical that people that don't like what you think about what they are doing or acting instantly rush in an infantile way to accuse you of judging them. I think I’m quite done with overly sensitive souls here that are now finding fault with my thinking. It is so typical that people that don’t like what you think about what they are doing or acting instantly rush in an infantile way to accuse you of judging them.

]]> By: Cowboy http://mormonmatters.org/2009/05/17/my-perspective-on-polygamy/#comment-75697 Cowboy Tue, 19 May 2009 23:18:11 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5360#comment-75697 FYI: If I recall correctly in the New Testament, when Jesus gives his famous words of caution to the would be judges of mankind, "judge not, lest ye be judged", the Joseph Smith translation indicates that the specific judgements spoken against were of the sort which attempt to address that final judgement where souls are ultimately reconciled to their final and Eternal destiny. What he is saying is that the final judgement is strictly the prerogative of the Lord, and we have no business meddling in this affair. I think that is part of what is intended with the recently quoted warning that "God will not be mocked". FYI:

If I recall correctly in the New Testament, when Jesus gives his famous words of caution to the would be judges of mankind, “judge not, lest ye be judged”, the Joseph Smith translation indicates that the specific judgements spoken against were of the sort which attempt to address that final judgement where souls are ultimately reconciled to their final and Eternal destiny. What he is saying is that the final judgement is strictly the prerogative of the Lord, and we have no business meddling in this affair. I think that is part of what is intended with the recently quoted warning that “God will not be mocked”.

]]> By: Aboz http://mormonmatters.org/2009/05/17/my-perspective-on-polygamy/#comment-75696 Aboz Tue, 19 May 2009 23:16:04 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5360#comment-75696 you people commented about my "simplistic" outlook so I made it simple for you, elaborating. And now it's a judgment of personal righteousness. Interesting.... you people commented about my “simplistic” outlook so I made it simple for you, elaborating. And now it’s a judgment of personal righteousness. Interesting….

]]> By: MH http://mormonmatters.org/2009/05/17/my-perspective-on-polygamy/#comment-75668 MH Tue, 19 May 2009 21:38:26 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5360#comment-75668 Amen Ray. Amen Ray.

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