According to the Handbook of Instruction the sure way to determine what is and is not to be considered The Official Position of the Church and what to be relied on for doctrine is to check the copyright. If it does not say Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Later-day Saints After that anything Copyright to Intellectual Reserve Inc. is the next tier of authority. Anything else, while it may be inspiring and of great value, is not doctrine. It is the private opinion of the author even if the author is the President of the Church.

As far as I know the only things outside the scriptures copyrighted Corporation of the President are Jesus the Christ and Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Intellectual Reserve Inc. includes the Handbook, all manuals, the Magazines and the Church’s official websites. Way to Be and Standing for Something, for example, are (c) Simon and Shuster and Gordon B. Hinkley respectively.

Regarding the quote from the Miracle of Forgiveness. I think it suffers from insufficient elaboration. As Pres. Kimball began by speaking of the los of chasity in the general case, I.E. both willing and unwilling. I think the final sentence was contrasting those who defend chastity against attack vs those who willingly give it up. But it’s not merely referring to different reactions to rape.

Also, question: How wide spread at the time was idea that a rape victim is not at fault?

Also far-reaching is the effect of loss of chastity. Once given or taken or stolen it can never be regained. Even in a forced contact such as rape or incest, the injured one is greatly outraged. If she has not cooperated and contributed to the foul deed, she is of course in a more favorable position. There is no condemnation where there is no voluntary participation. It is better to die in defending one’s virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle.

Kimball was rather specific and didn’t talk about any false accusations of rape. He talked about a rape where “If she has not cooperated and contributed to the foul deed,”. That’s the problem as one can’t possibly contribute to something where one first looses her/his consent. Even trying to trick the rapist by saying “Ok, lets go slow” to avoid further injury is still not contributing to the foul deed. Would you, when facing a loaded gun, be guilty of home invasion or robbery to an extent if you say to the assailant “take everything in here” to avoid being shot? Off course not.

That sentence is more a logical contradiction than insult but today its become an insult to survivors of crime and especially survivors of abuse, so therefore the sentence should be, at very least, removed. But we are somewhat of topic here.

By the way Hawkrrrl, this was one of your better posts …….

looking – hope to see you stick around the site.

There is no need to take offense where none is intended. I understand that rape is a serious matter, and therefore I can also see why President Kimball’s can come across so poorly. I also agree that my comments would have been in bad taste had I been challenging the claims of specific victims in a specific case. It is however perfectly appropriate to note that not every charge of rape is true, or at least entirely true, since the fact is we have ample evidence to prove this. It does not require such a stretch of the imagination to concieve of why someone may want level a false rape charge. I was postulating that *perhaps* this is what President Kimball had intended.

As for your question of my wording on the definition of rape, apparently this term does need clarification (smiley face). I was differentiating between circumstances where a rape actually occured vs instances where rape was alleged but unlikely.

You must be from Texas? they do think strange down there don’t they?

“the women often comforted themselves in the conclusion that they must have been raped, when infact they were just duped.”

Cowboy, your comment in #88 just blew me away; its just a fancy way of saying exactly what Kimball said, and blaming the victim. Maybe this discussion over in Feminist Housewife can help you out here: http://www.feministmormonhousewives.org/?p=2484 , titled ‘The limits of consent’

Interestingly, I made that basic statement this week in a meeting with lots of Stake leaders, and every one of them agreed with it. I’m not sure they all understood exactly what I personally meant, but they all agreed with the basic concept.

This is a really good point Hawkgrrrl, I have observed on more than occasion instances where well intentioned members were caught in the crosshairs of protection for Church leaders.

By the way, I put my comment about a “loss of virtue” in quotes because of the reasons you mention.

Jared:

Sorry for the misunderstanding on defining rape, I was a bit perplexed initially as to why you felt the need to define it for me, thanks for the clarification on what you meant (I haven’t wanted to get carried away with smiley faces, so just imagine me engaged in a hearty chuckle).

That’s a breath of fresh air. It really is hard to be somewhere in the middle!

For example, Doug and I know we are going to disagree on quite a few things, so our agreements are a real pleasure. I feel the same way about Jared – only, as the one generally sitting in the middle, our disagreements are different than mine and Doug’s. Actually, since I am in the middle in a lot of discussions and view lots of things in unique ways, I have come to expect disagreement with most people on something – and I’ve come to be at peace with that.

I’m sure it will end or at least ease up a bit and can feel that it’s making something of me (heaven only knows what) but it’s hard to endure. Damn hard.

Welcome to the site!

My experience may or may not be an example for you, I’ve found that trials come to new members. And by the sound of it you’re in the tick of trials. I’ve learned that trials and difficulties of varying degrees of intensity are always with us, but the Lord has promised to comfort and support us if we will diligently seek His help. Some of the most difficult challenges I’ve had, have come from the situation you describe. However, the solution has always come. For me it has been to pray for those who, in my opinion, were not filling their callings with understanding and love. Over time this approach has won the day, but its hard to do–at times.

I suggest praying for an inspired church leader to show up as soon as possible to help you navigate the difficulties you’re experiencing. Best wishes, and God speed. You’ll most likely recognize this individual by the comfort you will feel when talking with s/he. Kind of like you might have felt with the missionaries.

I’m leaving for family things. Take care.

As to your final question, absolutely – but don’t expect everyone to understand that. Finding the proper balance between tolerance and agreement is not easy – but it can be done.

There is much to be gained reading the various blogs. In many ways, the Bloggernacle is a living representation of the vision of the tree of life found in the Book of Mormon.

But there is nothing better, based on my experience, than gaining the knowledge contained in the scriptures and words of the prophets by prayerful daily study. It has resulted in many answered prayers for me. And that is the great blessing that can come to church members if they faithfully follow the simple course of staying close to the Lord by study and prayer.