“IT’S WRONG TO CRITICIZE LEADERS OF THE (MORMON) CHURCH, EVEN IF THE CRITICISM IS TRUE”
Dallin Oaks, LDS apostle

“Some things that are true are not very useful.”
Boyd K. Packer

“The merciful companion to truth is silence. Some truths are best left unsaid.”
Apostle Russel M. Nelson

“Loss of virtue is too great a price to pay even for the preservation of ones life – better dead clean, than alive unclean. Many is faithful the Latter-day Saint parent who has sent a son or a daughter on a mission or otherwise out into the world with the direction: ‘I would rather have you come back in a pine box with your virtue than return alive without it.’”–Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine (all editions), page 124.

” . . . Your virtue is worth more than your life. Please young folk, preserve your virtue even if you lose your lives. Do not tamper with sin . . . do not permit yourselves to be led into temptation.”–President David O. McKay, quoted in THE MIRACLE OF FORGIVENESS by Spencer W. Kimball

“…There is no true Latter-day Saint who would not rather bury a son or daughter than to have him or her lose his or her chastity — realizing that chastity is of more value than anything else in all the world.”–Heber J. Grant, quoted in THE MIRACLE OF FORGIVENESS by Spencer W. Kimball

“You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind….Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 290).

There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it; (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses vol 2 p142)

“I saw a striking contrast in the progress of the Indian people today as against that of only fifteen years ago. Truly the scales of darkness are falling from their eyes, and they are fast becoming a white and delightsome people….

The day of the Lamanites is nigh. For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised. In this picture of the twenty Lamanite missionaries, fifteen of the twenty were as light as Anglos;…The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation.

At one meeting a father and mother and their sixteen-year-old daughter were present, the little member girl…was several shades lighter than her parents…There was the doctor in a Utah city who for two years had had an Indian boy in his home who stated that he was some shades lighter than the younger brother just coming into the program from the reservation. These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness. One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated.

The day of the Lamanites has come….today the dark clouds are dissipating.” (Spencer W. Kimball, Improvement Era, December 1960. pages 922-23)

And here’s one that always confused me when people explain away these things by saying that the prophets were speaking as men, not as prophets:

“I say to Israel, the Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of the Church to lead you astray. It is not in the program. It is not in the mind of God.” (The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, pp. 212–13.)

“I remember years ago when I was a bishop I had President Heber J. Grant talk to our ward. After the meeting I drove him home … Standing by me, he put his arm over my shoulder and said: ‘My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.’ Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, ‘But you don’t need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray.’ ” (Conference Report, October 1960, p. 78.)

Both of these quotes seem to indicate that God is strong enough to prevent his real prophets from ever making a mistake or, “speak as men.”

Hmmmmm….

I do have to add – could all the “Christians” who comment here at least say what their particular brand of Christianity is? Looking around a bit I found out that Andrew Price is Calvinist. There is quite a diversity among protestants, and it helps to know their perspective. Perhaps some Christians like to keep that a secret (only speaking from personal experience) but I really am interested.

For the sake of your comment, it makes sense to me why you would feel that we are blasphemous and the “Christian” Jesus’ (again, I am not sure if I like that because one Christian’s Jesus is not always the same as another’s) believers are not.

With your second definition, it almost sounds like you are saying that people cannot have ANY rights or qualities of God. That would mean we could not love, or forgive, for example. Please help me understand your view. Again, though, one Christian man is different from another, however.

I never thought I would say something like this, but it seems that Andrew Price’s Jesus is really the only one who is not blasphemed on a regular basis. E.g. if you even say you have to accept Jesus into your life in order to be saved, you are depriving Him of sacred character, and are assuming you have some say in the matter.

BTW, I can’t comment on Andrew’s particular comment because I didn’t see what he said before it was removed.

I ask again that you please examine the two definitions I provided.

Blasphemous behavior; the act of depriving something of its sacred character. Mormonism is guilty of this. Christianity is not. The Christian Jesus is God (not a god). He is not deprived of his sacred character in any way. The Mormon Jesus is simply our spirit brother, his sacred character is lowered to the human level.

Blasphemy; The crime of assuming to oneself the rights or qualities of God. Mormonism is guilty again. Christianity is not. Christian men do not assume the rights of God upon themselves. Mormon men do. The Mormon man tries to elevate himself to Godhood. In doing so he must bring an eternal, omnipresent God down to his level…

Joe, I have to ask, are you a Calvinist? If you are not, your Jesus and Andrew Price’s are definitely NOT the same Jesus. Just sayin’. I also think Ray has not been able to stay away from the blog because he just really loves talking about who has the “real” Jesus with you. Again, good-natured joke.

I’m sure you’ll agree that your belief in the divinity of Rabbi Jeshua of Nazareth is subjective, rather than objective. Until we have an objectively-proven deity, it seems rather impossible to be “objectively blasphemous.”

Let me try to be perfectly clear:

Andrew’s words to which I object – that are the very core definition of objective blasphemy – are specific adjectives used in conjunction with the name of Jesus, not a generic defense of overall belief. I believe when you attach derogatory words to His actual name, you use it blasphemously – you take it in vain in a very real and direct way that does not apply to civil discussions of His nature. I believe there is a line between holding views that others consider blasphemous and actually using vile and disgusting words as adjectives that blaspheme his very name – and I personally think that’s a bright (not fine) line. One is subjectively blasphemous; the other is objectively derogatory and blasphemous.

You and I disagree about a lot of things, but I don’t consider your views to be objectively blasphemous. The moment you or I step across the line and start using disgusting and vile adjectives, however, in direct conjunction with his name, I believe objective blasphemy has occurred.

We will have to disagree that your Jesus is, “the same historical person and Lord.”

We will also have to disagree that your behavior is not blasphemous. I understand that you don’t see your behavior as blasphemous. However your view of Jesus matches a definition of blasphemous behavior perfectly: Blasphemous behavior; the act of depriving something of its sacred character. Because you do not believe that Jesus is mighty God, and the Everlasting Father, you are depriving Jesus of his sacred character.

Mormon men (by claiming that they can someday become a god) fit another definition of blasphemy: The crime of assuming to oneself the rights or qualities of God.

I agree totally that we interpret Jesus very differently than the rest of Christianity. I’ve never said otherwise. He is, however, the same historical person and Lord. That does not excuse blaspheming Him in the words we use when speaking directly about Him. I have never done that and never will – even when talking of how others view Him.

If you can’t see the difference, I have no clue how to say it differently.

1st point… I thought you were done posting here? Was your previous sign-off (lamenting your departure) a ruse?

2nd point… The Jesus of Mormonism is not the same being that Christianity worships (Hinkley even said so). Could you please stop ridiculing and using vile and disgusting terms to defile the real Jesus?

The 2 Corinthians quote is easy to “face up to” from a Mormon perspective – and it is the exact same answer you give from your perspective. You see us as fulfilling it, and many Mormons see the preachers of the early Catholic Church, the Dark Ages and the Protestant Reformation as fulfilling it. The easiest, most logical understanding points to those who would come after Paul and actually during his ministry, especially since he wrote to the saints in Corinth about falsehoods that already were creeping into their worship. (For example, 1 Corinthians 15 is his treatise on the resurrection, and it is addressed to saints in Corinth who were denying the reality and universality of the resurrection – which, btw, many modern Protestants also deny.)

Back to my main point:

Post what you will, but don’t directly insult and blaspheme the Lord we worship. We might disagree in our interpretations of Jesus of Nazareth, but we are speaking of the same man and the same Lord. When you call him disgusting, vile names, you are speaking of the same Being you worship – and this is the second time in the past few days you have ridiculed him using vile and disgusting terms. Please stop.

Naturally I would not select any part of the Bible as being better than another , but in terms of its relevance to Hinckley’s quote I would ask people to honestly face up to the words of the Apostle Paul when he said ” For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus whom we have not preached , or if ye receive another spirit which ye have not received , or another gospel which ye have not accepted , ye might well bear with him ” 2Corinthians Ch11v4

The [blasphemous adjectives deleted] Jesus of Mormonism is not – “…the Lord from Heaven ” It is that realisation which has led many Mormons from out of darkness into the light of God’s truth .

“. . . he that abideth not this law (polygamy) can in no wise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.” (D & C, 132:27)

“Go ye, therefore, and do the works of Abraham; enter ye into my law [polygamy] and ye shall be saved.” (D & C, 132:32)

‘”The only men who become Gods . . . are those who enter into polygamy.” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 11, p. 269)

“I bear my solemn testimony that plural marriage is as true as any principle that has been revealed from the heavens. I bear my testimony that it is a necessity, and that the Church of Christ in its fullness never existed without it. Where you have the eternity of marriage you are bound to have plural marriage; bound to and it is one of the marks of the Church of Jesus Christ in its sealing ordinances.” (George Teasdale, Journal of Discourses, vol. 25, p. 21)

‘”The Lord has said, that those who reject this principle [polygamy] reject their salvation, they shall be damned, saith the Lord . . . they will finally go down to hell and be damned if they do not repent.” (0rson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, vol. 17, pp. 224-225)

“The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood—was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers,” (Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 115).

The best:

“In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints ‘do not believe in the traditional Christ.’ ‘No, I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.’” (LDS Church News Week ending June 20, 1998, p. 7).

It is my opinion that by demonstrating both the good and bad, we ensure that our leaders will, in fact, “never lead us astray”. I have a reverence for those who hold various offices (religiously, politically, etc.). Being willing to serve warrants respect for the individual and the position or office warrants respect in and of itself. Still, that in no way should handcuff me to be a blind follower or even someone who agrees and accepts all that is presented by these folks as being for me. God gave me a mind and a body and a spirit (same as them) and He expects me to use all for my best interests and the best interests of those around me. When someone else (regardless of who) contradicts those for me, then I must choose (carefully I might add) to follow my own conscience rather than the specific leader in question.

While this thread may be disheartening to some because it does show how, despite their best efforts, past and present leaders are still fallible and have misconceptions of their own. That doesn’t demean them or diminish them in my eyes; it only enhances my own perspective of MY responsibility in this whole affair!

Margie–I don’t know much about the CoC’s current teachings. Are you saying the church itself now accepts that Joseph Smith, Jr. taught and practiced polygamy?

All I know is if I never let anyone criticize me or correct the things I have said I would be worse off. There have been instances when I have said something and the person I was talking to me corrected me because I said something offensive. I am glad people tell me that because I usually say it out of ignorance. The leaders are not perfect, they may not know when something is offensive. I’m not saying it’s our job to correct the leaders of the church but I don’t think criticism is always bad…

The “baseless accusations” are taken word-for-word from his website. He has a post that says he can spot a Mormon in any crowd because of their in-bred features (complete with a picture of a man and a woman wearing nothing but garments), and he speculates that Pres. McKay’s extension of missionary work was a calculated attempt to change the genetic makeup of the membership to reduce the occurrence of birth defects from having an in-bred population. The website is dedicated to ridiculing social and organizational aspects of Mormonism with which Herb does not agree or approve – from prophets to jello. I have no problem with someone doing that, but it is disingenuous to then portray himself as constructive in any way.

Calling me dishonest and attacking “my Mormonism” in his response is the height of hypocrisy.

I also have no desire to continue this type of fight within this thread. It only cheapens and detracts from the purpose of the post, and Adam doesn’t deserve that. This is a compelling post, and I won’t contribute to derailing it further.