Whether one believes in god’s involvement or not, I definitely agree with Ray that the story of Job is a “very good caution for people who want to see a direct correlation between righteousness and adversity.” I think there is way too much of this going around, and many times, to the self more than to others. As Christ taught when asked upon seeing a blind man who had sinned, he or his parents: Neither this man nor his parents sinned.

Whether or not one believes in god, this is a valuable lesson. My heart goes out to those who suffer adversity and then add to their sorrows by blaming themselves for not being righteous enough. Surely many have brought adversity on themselves by their choices. But also many have beat themselves up over things that had nothing to do with whether they sinned or not. As the bible states, “time and chance happeneth to them all.” One does not have to believe the bible is inspired to agree with that.

I have thought of this Job issue before. If the story of Job is allegorical, and if Joseph Smith knew that, I think his natural response to the question of whether he has sufferedd as Job would be: “you mean the fictional character? I haven’t suffered as much as the fictional character? That’s supposed to comfort me?” Honestly, if I was trying to comfort a friend who was going through a tough time I would use a real world example, not a storybook character.

I agree we see in a foggy mirror or through a glass, darkly, the reality we are in.

I remember when Elizabeth Smart was finally recovered and the parents talked on the news about how they prayed and God answered their prayers to save their daughter. And that comment highly offended one commentator whose daughter was abducted and not recovered alive, asking why God would care about the Smart girl more than their daughter… it is nice to feel that way when it works out, but in real life there are some bad things that happen, and it is hard to explain why God sometimes intervenes and sometimes doesn’t.

I think it seems like trials are brought on by sin or brought on by the Lord “allowing” the adversary to tempt us to let us grow. But it really seems unlikely such cooperation and effort is directed towards individuals. Instead, it seems to me that there is plenty of hardships in the mortal world, it is just a matter of time until we get our share.

Being in this world will help us grow. No one will skate through with no problems to deal with. Why do we have to think we are so special to get special attention to have trials given to us or taken from us when the world is filled with enough to go around?

Especially in a handful of cases, in various ways, I have been given glimpses of the future in such a way as to burn indelibly into my heart the belief that God is aware of us and reaches down sometimes to give someone specific comfort, instruction or advance warning. Perhaps, in the end, we are saying much the same thing (that God isn’t “behind” or “causing” adversity and suffering), but I am left to wonder why it seems he assists some people, sometimes, in some way to be able to understand and accept their adversity and suffering while not seeming to assist others to the same degree (or at all). I can’t chalk it up to a difference in sincerity or effort, since I know I am not a single bit more sincere or dedicated than others I know who have not had my experiences. I am left to wonder if it isn’t something more ambiguous – more fundamental – more intrinsic – more SOMETHING, but I have no idea other than being convinced to my core that it has nothing whatsoever to do with me being “better” in ANY way than those who lack my experiences.

I truly don’t know; I am baffled by it; there is no other explanation for at least three of my experiences, but I can’t begin to comprehend the “why” and the “what” behind them. I just know I am convinced He does reach down sometimes, and I am left totally and completely “confused at the grace that so fully he proffers me”.

I never said that I don’t believe in a life after mortality but but I think it’s important to consider where the concept may have come from along with possible reasons. My concern is the here and now and why things occur, specifically why there’s so much suffering. One of the main function of any religion is to try and help a person make sense of his/her experience and find meaning in their life. I’ve read your posts on the subject going back more than a year and though I can appreciate what you’re saying it’s just not convincing to me as to why adversity, suffering, etc. happen and there still be a loving all powerful all knowing god. To me is makes more sense to say that god doesn’t have anything to do with any of it, good or bad than to try and decide when and why we’re blessed and cursed.

Well, if you decide that the afterlife is a construct and not real, then obviously you won’t like my thoughts or perspectives. I’m not sure we have enough in common then.

It was Paul who said that if But when all is said and done the here and now is all we have then we are of all men, most miserable.

In that context, there is no God that matters.

I’d disagree, of course, and would side with Paul, with a good deal of attention to the midrash that is Hebrews — regardless of who wrote it.

Its always interesting to have an exchange of ideas. Just a few points for clarification:

Any access I have to the things of the Spirit is not due to my righteousness, it comes because of the atonement and then according to one’s desires (3 Nephi 12:6).

I am always on the look out for someone who has experienced greater light and knowledge. It can be a learning experience. I’ve come across a few who fit the bill, Polynesians appear to be some of the most gifted among the saints. I was with a Polynesian lady recently and she shared many experiences, including an angelic visitation.

Regarding this generation of LDS and my observation that many appear to lack interest in things of the Spirit, Moroni warned us about this. Out of all the things we could have told us he chose to say:

24 And now I speak unto all the ends of the earth—that if the day cometh that the power and gifts of God shall be done away among you, it shall be because of unbelief.

25 And wo be unto the children of men if this be the case; for there shall be none that doeth good among you, no not one. For if there be one among you that doeth good, he shall work by the power and gifts of God. (Book of Mormon | Moroni 10:24 – 25)

I always follow it in my mind with: “God must love me a who~le lot!”

Occasionally followed by “I wish He’d spread the love He’s giving me around a little bit more” depending on my mood.

I’ve carefully read your comment and agree with many things you’ve stated. I particularly appreciate you’re desire to create understanding where points of view are at variance.

There is no doubt I can improve in communicating what I would like to contribute to a given post.

The point I want to make without offending others is that I am not seeking for truth any longer-I have it. The Lord is my friend and teacher. I am at a point, because of His grace and mercy, where I am able to access heaven’s help on a regular basis. This is the promise that every LDS has available, but few in our day are taking advantage of it. I have a desire to help others obtain what the Lord is willing and able to give each of us if we will fully embrace the doctrine of Christ.

Anyway, I’m not trying to stir the pot, these are the thoughts of someone who may be in the minority on this board.

I would suggest that we all will fail, at least at some point, to some degree, when presented with adversity. That seems a given. But I would also suggest that God gives us lots of chances, and especially on what he sees as the most important qualities for us to develop. If we don’t pass a big first challenge, hopefully we’ll grow from smaller subsequent challenges and become more as we should be. A failure does not always have to mean loss of hope.

Some challenges keep coming anyway, that doesn’t mean we’ve failed. It may be a key quality Heavenly Father desires us to learn during this life. I have a medical condition that can be quite debilitating at times, and have had it for a third of my life now. I don’t believe that there was anything for which I was punished at the time it began, or that I have failed to repent in attempt to heal (trust me, I’ve tried). I do think that there are certain things I might be unable to learn other ways. And God does love us enough that he provides us ways to grow–ways that may well be the very most effective for us, individually–even though I imagine it must break his heart at times as a parent (the Godly equivalent of a broken heart, of course).

I agree wholeheartedly with Stephen: “God is putting it all together, especially as he has promised to make things right in the end.” Trials fit into that, whether some are failed tests or not. I enjoyed Pres. Eyring’s recent conference talk, “Adversity”, which I have read several times in the past few days and have gained some interesting insights from.

Stephen, I remember your previous posts on this subjects and I’m afraid I don’t find you explanations very satisfying. To me it works better to just say there is no answer than to say, all in due time, God’s ways are not our ways, as bad as it is it will be better. My feeling is that the whole concept of heaven was a construct in the early Christian church to explain away why Christ hadn’t come and why as bad as this life is it will all be better on the other side. But when all is said and done the here and now is all we have. As the old hymn used to say before if was correlated, “there is no tomorrow but only today.”

From what I’ve gathered from your posts, you’ve been through more than most and suffered hardships that I hope I never have to bear. But in my work I see people on a regular basis that are called to suffer. Some may be ennobled by it and others not but I see none of it as a sign of God’s love for them. Suffering just is. Bringing God into the picture risks seeing him as not all powerful on the one hand and random in his actions on the other.

I’m not about to pray for trials like that. If they come my way, they come my way. If they don’t, I will bless God for it.

Stephen, I know this is much more personal for you than for me, but I would be interested in your response to Rick’s question.

I would say that God generally acts to preserve your ability to react to things freely and to allow growth, within a context of not distorting the world too badly.

I’d also say that sayings, such as “God is not a tame lion” or “God is not a slot machine” or “God is not a black box” (a “black box” is a machine that you figure out how it works by what it does in response to input, as it may be a mystery how it works, but it works the same every time), do not do much for me. Fine, God isn’t tame, but that still doesn’t explain why sometimes tangible positive miracles occur and sometimes they do not.

On the other hand, it makes a lot of sense to me when I read “My ways are not your ways” and God goes on to explain that he really is a lot smarter than we are with a lot more perspective. From there it makes sense that in the long run, God is putting it all together, especially as he has promised to make things right in the end.

That is about three posts worth of material. I’ll have to find time.

If I use adversity to transform myself for good then it’s a sign of God’s love but if I fail and the adversity grinds me down what is it then other than my failure?

Ah, the ol’ “that which does not kill me only has failed to kill me” (a complete refutation of the “that which does not kill me makes me stronger” philosophy, given that sometimes things just maim us).

I’ve an essay that brushes on that: http://adrr.com/living/ss_1.htm — though if you’ve read my previous essays on affliction you know that I think that (a) things are much worse than we appreciate (we are all slapping on mud and eating grubs compared to heaven) and things are not as bad as we think they are (it really is just a short moment and none of it is permanent except that which we chose).

But, more directly, I think that adversity will transform you, one way or another, even if it seems like it is not. Life needs to be allowed to run, and often we are in the midst of something, not the end. If you are ground down, but do not choose evil, then you haven’t failed, regardless of how you look at it.

I personally think the story of Job is allegorical, but I also think it’s a very good caution for people who want to see a direct correlation between righteousness and adversity.

3. To create humility which leads to repentance Alma 32:6, D&C 20:5-6

Some are delivered from difficulties because of their faith while others are not because of the lack of faith Ether 12:12

You addressed your question to Stephen. I hope I can chime in with a few thoughts.

There appears to be various kinds of adversity.

1. To give us experience and for our good D&C 122
2. To try us and prepare us for blessings from the Lord Ether 12:6

Stephen

I’m sorry, but this doesn’t make much sense to me. If I use adversity to transform myself for good then it’s a sign of God’s love but if I fail and the adversity grinds me down what is it then other than my failure? Is it a sign of God’s love either way? It may be a sign of God’s love that I am alive and have my agency but all that means is that all that occurs, good, bad, or indifferent is that sort of a sign.

Ray, you say “Stephen, I am a firm believer that adversity is a manifestation of God’s love in at least one very direct way – proof that He really does allow freedom and agency.” How does this reconcile with the fact for some he intervenes and takes away the adversity. In that case is He taking away agency since He doesn’t allow the consequences of our or someone else’s actions or the random effect of nature to harm us? I hope this isn’t off thread but this raises questions for me that I have no answers for.