I agree with the Edmunds-Tucker Act of 1887. The practice of polygamy was and is repugnant, disenfranchising women and even worse abuses underage girls forcing them into marriage. The Edmunds-Tucker Act was a success because it forced the Mormon Church to make a decision. The church could either choose to continue practicing the doctrine of polygamy and the result would be the church would cease to exist as a corporate entity. Or the church could choose to keep itself as a corporate entity but give up the practice of polygamy. This put the church into a difficult position because the Lord told prophet John Taylor in 1886 that polygamy was an everlasting covenant that cannot be abrogated nor done away with but will stand forever. The Lord told the prophet that he will never revoke the law of polygamy because it is everlasting. So given the difficult choice of supporting an everlasting doctrine or keeping the church as a corporate entity the Mormon church chose to sacrifice their doctrine and keep the church as a corporate entity. The Edmunds-Tucker act was successful in eradicating the Mormon’s sexual immoral, abhorrent practice of polygamy. Regardless of the legal-ease with the 1887 Act it was successful in stopping the Mormons of practicing this hideous doctrine. The American public, at the time, considered polygamy and slavery as the two great evils in American society.
To answer my own question. One of the consequences of sexual immorality is that the public stands up to demand the practice be stopped, the government listens and takes action to stop the sexual immorality.

Now that the church has survived, as a corporate entity, 122 years later the church can now defend the “right of traditional marriage” against Prop 8 in CA.

Do you agree with the Tucker-Edmunds Act that outlawed polygamy? Why or why not?

http://www.theragingelephant.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=188:gay-marriage-will-lead-to-the-downfall-of-society&catid=1:latest-news

jon, what do you mean by “the lifestyle?” Joseph Nicolosi, chief author/promoter of the so-called “reparative therapy” engaged in by Exodus and Evergreen (i.e., that gays just haven’t learned how to be masculine enough, so learning such skills as playing basketball will turn them straight), doesn’t seem to be able to define the “gay lifestyle,” though he certainly condems it loudly. My “lifestyle” as a gay man includes many things, jon, most of which are much like the “lifestyles” of anyone else commenting on this blog.

1. Recognize gay sex for what it is. An addiction that is not good for them.

Sexual addiction will indeed cause myriad problems for an individual who suffers from it. This is true, whether the addict engages in sex with persons of the opposite sex, or with persons of the same sex. Can you provide any reputable data, jon, to back up your repeated claim that all homosexual activity is the result of addiction? If not, you’re simply making an unsupported declaration, as if it was unquestionable fact.

2. They avoid people and places that will lead them into it again. This also may involve getting out of a relationship they have been in for a long time.

You mean places like weekly Evergreen support meetings, jon? Of course, the leaders of Evergreen doesn’t like to admit that their members often hook up with each other for sex right after the meetings, do they? I guess all that talk about Jesus turning them into “real men” gets the gay LDS guys pretty excited!

3. They may find support at the church of their choice.

Yes, so long as they make all the right statements, acknowledging their deity-given duty to hate themselves.

4. They realize that God’s way are not their ways and God sees what we do not.

Then what makes you certain, jon, that Evergreen’s way is deity’s way? What makes you certain that Evergreen sees what deity sees, if you don’t?

5. They realize that they are loved by God and members of the church and that he does not want them to live this way. Alma’s ever eternal words. Wickedness never was happiness.

Wait a second…first you said that self-loathing gays who retreat into the closet can find support in “the church of their choice,” but now you say they are “members of the church,” and follow it up by quoting from The Book of Mormon, indicating that by “the church,” you mean the LDS church. Which is it, jon? Are the people you describe part of “the church of their choice,” or are they all LDS?

6. Ultimate healing will come if one remains faithful and makes the choice not to backslide.

Considering it’s plain that you pulled this list of talking points from Evergreen and/or its adherents, why do your claims oppose those of the LDS first presidency? The LDS first presidency and quorum of the twelve have made it clear that they don’t know the cause of homosexual orientation, so why does Evergreen claim that they know both the cause and the “cure?”

jon, again, I understand what you’re going through. I know how desperately you wish you could “change” your sexual orientation, and I also know how easy it is to fall prey to Evergeen, Nicolosi, et. al. After all, they provide you with quick, plausible-sounding explanations of why you’re gay. They tell you that your parents failed to teach you how to be a “real man,” so you can say it’s “not your fault” that you’re gay. That’s a whole lot easier than telling yourself that you must be horribly evil, isn’t it? So you buy what they’re selling, and then you give them more of your time and money, because if they know why you’re gay, surely they know how to “cure” you and make you straight!

jon, don’t fall for these hucksters. Take a good look at what they’re telling you, and compare that to what has been officially stated in the past two years by the LDS first presidency and quorum of the twelve. If you do so, you’ll see that they don’t line up. Then, since you’re trying to be a faithful member of the LDS church, you need to ask yourself why these men are telling you something so different from what your own church leaders are saying.

Douglas Hunter–thanks for your thoughtful reply to JM. Personally, when I read that #1, I don’t bother to read #2. I’m glad people like you and Nick continue the dialogue.

#261 “Sexual immorality has always been the single biggest cause of societies failing.”

This idea is not exceptional in conservative religious circles, and says more about the attitudes of the person who makes such a claim then it does about any given society. That being said I would love to know how they quantify the relationships between their understanding of “sexual immorality” and a societies ability to govern itself, economic distress and military conflict. The short answer is that they can not and do not quantify such relationships because there is no relationship to quantify. Jon’s statement and many others like it arise out of fear of the homosexual other, who folks like Jon do not understand, or trust, or know much of anything about. What is interesting is that such statements are often made in a religious context that is specifically Christian. But what we can not ignore is that the idea that the other poses a threat to society and are to be feared and fought against due to ontological difference, is an idea that is completely contrary to the spiritual and ethical foundations of the Hebrew and Christian systems of thought.

“When people decide to leave the lifestyle behind, they usually:
1. Recognize gay sex for what it is. An addiction that is not good for them.
2. They avoid people and places that will lead them into it again. This also may involve getting out of a relationship they have been in for a long time.
3. They may find support at the church of their choice.
4. They realize that God’s way are not their ways and God sees what we do not.
5. They realize that they are loved by God and members of the church and that he does not want them to live this way. Alma’s ever eternal words. Wickedness never was happiness.
6. Ultimate healing will come if one remains faithful and makes the choice not to backslide.”

Now this is an interesting statement and I am glad to provide the counter example:
When gay folks come to terms with their gayness they:
1.Realize that all the people telling them that their “lifestyle” is a “choice” have no idea what they are talking about.
2.Become part of supportive communities and being healing and learning how to move past years of self loathing that comes from believing other people’s false idea about them.
3. May find support at the church of their choice such as the UCC or reform Jewish temples, or Episcopalian, or many other religious organizations.
4. Realize that God’s ways are not homophobic and that God can and does love and support them as gay people.
5. Realize that God’s ways are not our ways and that they will need to be more patient, more compassionate than others, and they realize that they will not enjoy full civil rights and participation with out fighting for such rights.
6. may come out of long term depression.
7. Are able to be in higher quality and longer term relationships than they had previously.
8. Get along better with family and friends.
9. Enjoy more stable and productive lives.

Jon’s statements and others like it are textbook examples of the kinds of homophobia we see today. Its not necessarily hateful or violent, but it is very fearful, viewing gay folks as posing a serious threat. What is more, such homophobia is more than willing to be proscriptive. What Craig Owens use to call “The indignity of speaking for the other.” Religious conservatives truly believe that they have a better understanding of homosexuality than people who are gay do.

Further Jon’s statements (and many others like them) use religion in a totalizing and specifically ideological way. Asserting that their understanding of religious truth is normative. One thing that must not be forgotten is the religious experiences of gay folks themselves, including personal revelation, service in the community, preaching and giving blessings. Their prayer lives, etc. etc. etc. Its an ethical necessity that we let gay people describe and assess their own lives and religious experiences, that they tell us what their relationship with God is like, and that we be willing to listen to their experiences and not seek to find theological justification for our own fear of the other.

On what evidence do you reach this conclusion, jon? You’re making an unsupported declaration, as if it was an unquestionable fact.

Consequences of sexual immorality are inescapable.

Certainly, if one belongs to an organization which considers your sexual behavior “immoral,” you will experience consequences.

Legalizing it to kingdom come makes no difference.

Certainly, the repeal of unconstitutional laws against homosexual activity made no difference in regard to those consequences which the LDS church imposes on its own members who engage in such.

We always pay the consequences for our behavior.

Yes, this is true. What consequences do you pay for being a closeted, self-loathing gay man, hell-bent on deceiving others about who you are and what you feel?

I wonder if the label of unrighteous dominion applies to governments and governmental agencies, religious organizations and special interest pressure groups equally…

That’s worth pondering in light of the D&C statement about how pervasive unrighteous dominion is.

#262 jon- I don’t think it necessarily matters if a response is “popular”. Some of us have had to live with what we consult our consciences with and pray long and hard about for a decade before others can even bear to hear it.

The truth needs to be told! Who knows how the Holy Spirit speaks to the church. Perhaps when a revelation is particularly difficult, Heavenly Father needs a louder voice and speaks with the whole population as He did in the 60s & 70s about the priesthood.

So, if your conclusions are based on the truth and not a personal comfort zone, don’t rely on permission or popularity to speak them. OTOH, if you feel you said what you had to, then I thank you for your contribution to a vigorous and interesting conversation.

Singing off this blog. I realize that my comments are not popular with everyone but that’s the point of a blog. We all have our own opinion whether others like it or not. Remember, agree to disagree like Ray says.

Why? You’re making an unsupported declaration, as if it was “proof” of something.

How else is society to keep on propagating itself?

Society seems to be doing a remarkably competent job of propagating itself, despite the fact that gays and lesbians have been around for millenia.

Is discrimination acceptable to not allow other unions such as same sex, polygamous, polyamorous, incestuous, or any other deviant unions? Yes, it is.
To maintain a harmonious society it is essential.

Why? You’re making an unsupported declaration, as if it was “proof” of something.

The people of Sodom and Gomorrah and the people of Noah’s time did not believe that the consequences would come. But they always come. Sooner or later.

In each of those cases, deity allegedly rescued the truly righteous. If you’ve got things so well settled, jon, and you’re so sure you’re one of the “good guys,” you shouldn’t have anything to worry about! Based on the examples of Noah and Soddom/Gomorrah, you’ll be wisked out before the brimstone or rain starts falling!

I didn’t take your comment as judgmental in any way, Jen. No worries!

#252:
What disappointed you the most re: church actions in prop or what may have surprised you in things the general church did/said?

Hmm…it’s honestly rather hard to choose the “most disappointing” or “most surprising” aspect of the whole LDS involvement. I do think it was very unfortunate that some LDS resorted to “eating their own,” even to the point of telling those members who were troubled by Prop 8 that they should be excommunicated for “not following the prophet.” I was shocked, though not necessarily surprised, at how brazen LDS leaders were in claiming that gays and lesbians who criticized the LDS campaign were “religious persecutors,” trying to take their rights away. I honestly still haven’t figured out whether (1) LDS leaders were truly that blind to the irony of their statements, or (2) LDS leaders simply thought gays and lesbians were too loathesome to be entitled to any rights at all.

You have great wisdom and learned much. Heavenly Father will never leave us alone, though it may feel that way. It did even to the Savior…..

Thank you for your comment. Looking back now I can say I am grateful for the experience I had as a child because it has made me who I am today, but it took me years to get to that point. I have learned that God doesn’t jump in and save the day for everyone, even when it seems like the most obvious and loving thing to do. Those “thorns in our side” may be there for half our lives or even all of our lives and yet I truly believe God can and will make up the difference someday. It may not be now or in the next 10-20 years or even in this life, but I know He is capable, willing and desirous to give us all that He has if we will but accept Him. I can honestly say that I understand pain so deep it hurts to pray or even consider that there is anyone there, because you can’t help but wonder if they are there, how can they ignore you so perfectly day in and day out? I believe there are many who feel this way inside and it becomes too painful to consider a loving Heavenly Father just watching idle, doing nothing, so that belief in Him has to be shed or changed dramatically in order to cope with the pain, otherwise it is all consuming. I don’t know why God allows some to have to carry so much but I do know that He never leaves them and is always there for them. Me saying that is quite a thing because even now I feel abandoned by the Lord, but still I cannot say that He is not there,it is just not possible for me to do, my spirit knows He is and I cannot deny it.

AdamF-

I got so busy reading one of the blogs you listed I forgot to thank you for directing me to it. I am finding it very insightful and helpful. *virtual hug back*

My heart goes out to you for the struggle that you have had. It is unfortunate that things happen to the most innocent of God’s children. One of the things I have realized is the power of God’s gift of choice. This is the most powerful gift we have been given by Him apart from our physical body. That power of choice causes people to do good and in some cases, to do evil. The power of choice is a central piece of the great plan of happiness. And, because of it, God is almost powerless to change the wrong choices that some make. it is no consolation to those who suffer at the hands of those who make wrong choices, but they will receive the reward they have earned. but, Savior has invited us to cast our burdens on Him, as Ray mentioned in another post and He will help relieve you of the hurt.

The why “bad things happen to good people” is a great mystery of life.