In the contemporary Church, the dominant idea seems to be that if people have spiritual experiences, systematic or extensive theology is irrelevant. I think that view is short sighted. A precept strengthened by understanding is a far more powerful thing than one sustained by feeling alone, especially that sustained by the secondary afterglow of something rather more fundamental.

Totally!

“I mean, do you realize how it must sound to someone else?”

I try, but don’t always realize it until it’s pointed out to me. That’s why there’s such value in different perspectives, especially yours, Andrew. It’s not every day Mormons hear a perspective like yours, and those who haven’t are missing out. I mean that with the utmost sincerity.

you can give whatever answer you want, Mandi. I do myself more of a service to find out what believers really think and really feel, rather than hearing it candy-coated.

In the end, we might not see eye to eye, and we might not have the same ending experiences, but at least we’ll know where each other stands. So, your original answer is fine.

re 20

well, even in that case, I’m just saying I’m not going to flip out on you or anything.

One of the things the Church has taught me (and others will probably argue that this hasn’t been their experience) is respect and love for every human, no matter what they’re like. Now, I’m not perfect at this, but things I’ve learned from Church doctrine and from experience with Church members is that we should really TRY to look beyond people’s flaws and see the child of God that is inside everyone. This has really helped me deal with people in a more loving and kind manner. I wish more people would really try to do that.

a tough one for non-believers to comment on? As a nonbeliever, I can say this one wasn’t even too tough to write.

I mean, this is a kind of idealism-inspiring post. You don’t have to talk about how the church is or how it was, but you can talk about what you would like the church *to be* for people in the future. That shouldn’t be too hard, even if your past experiences have shown you that what you post is unlikely to be the experience of people as the church is now.

For example, even as I start moving away and redefining what I think is truly good or bad (or if good or bad are even good concepts to deal with), I can recognize that I would wish that if everyone got one thing from the church, they would get the wherewithal to go through that process. I do not mean they should think that you’re a better person if you follow the church’s current code of awesome…but rather, even if they leave, even if they decide to pick and choose, whatever the case is, I’d hope that the church provided some experience that got them away from complacency and got them to thinking critically about this issue. And I think exmember or struggling members are even MORE acutely aware of this process sometimes. And I think it makes us better.

Ray, we agree on all the material points. We disagree on the trivial points . As such, I’ve got to milk it for what it’s worth. 16 comments and counting!

again, I think that everything you say can be flipped around depending on whatever your beliefs are. I mean, do you realize how it must sound to someone else? You already presuppose your conclusion…For example, I would agree that a big part of integrity entails having a sense of who you are. But where you presuppose a conclusion is because you have a very clear idea of what that sense should entail, because for you, it entails “God [being] aware of every detail in our lives and…car[ing] about us as a father does for his children.” But this sense doesn’t work for everyone, first of all, and when some try to force this sense, it brings them pain. It does not mesh with experienced reality. It is actually a sense *not* of who they are, but a sense of rather what Mormon metaphysics would want them to be.

Now, I agree that there are different strokes for different folks, so to speak. For people who need a belief in God to be their true selves, then even I would say that they have an imperative to search and find God in whatever way they can. And I don’t mean this in any slight (because I know there are others who would say such a thing with the terrible implication that belief in god is just a “crutch” for people who can’t deal with “reality,” and I think these people are just as much as fault). But, again, frequently I have to come to a realization, humbling as it is, that I cannot and should not presume that any one way or another is a universal or external truth…rather, each way is a subjective and personal truth that can (and does) differ for every person. And I know even I’m not perfect at it, but I just think everyone needs to realize that we don’t need to presume that “one size fits all.”

I’m not saying this is the case with you, but I think there are many (including myself), who would have less motivation to be their true selves if we did not believe in God. Personally speaking, I think it’s given me more motivation to explore my strengths, as well as work on my weaknesses, and to do my best to fulfill what I believe is my God-given potential.

Of course, one does not need faith in a God to do the above. I can appreciate, for example, humanist philosophies that encourage morals, ethics, and allowing all to magnify their self-worth and potential without being hindered by religious dogma.

FD, my nonbeliever senses are tingling, because I have a completely different viewpoint. I think integrity does take a huge meaning when we believe that God is in the picture, but this isn’t necessarily a good thing. For some, perhaps it is a good thing, but I think it also creates some artificialities. For example, your suggesting that “we are more mindful of everything we do and say when we believe it’s not just other people who are watching us, but God himself.” I mean, certainly for you and for others, this seems like a good thing. But I hear a much different thing about integrity — integrity is so great because it’s what you do when you think no one is watching you. So, it’s not what you do in front of people. It’s not what you do in front of God. It’s what you do when no one is watching you (or at least, you think no one is watching you).

So, your quotation seems actually inimical to integrity…and I know you don’t mean it that way, so I don’t want to attack your belief. It seems to remind me (but I’m not suggesting that you or anyone else here believes anything of this sort) of people who suppose that people only do not murder because of fear of Godly wrath…personally, I should SINCERELY hope that even for people who believe in God, they do not murder for a whole lot more than GGod

In conjunction with this, the idea of submission of one’s will to something higher than one’s own needs/wants, is very powerful. I believe it is what enables us to learn, grow, and be molded into something better, to become one with nature and our fellows. Submission of one’s will makes service to others a natural consequence!

On the other hand, though, I find that it can sometimes be more challenging to have integrity and the courage to be my authentic self within the Church than without. Sometimes it’s easier to be a “peculiar person” in the outside world than a “peculiar Mormon” in the LDS Church.

Probably a belief that they, personally, and all other people, collectively, are important and deserve to be loved as equals – regardless of differences. I translate that as a Parent/Child (brother/sister) relationship for all, but there are others who had a horrible experience with their father (or with men in general – or with authority figures in general), mother, siblings, etc. I wish everyone could feel an uplifting, empowering, comforting, ennobling, accepting connection to God and others – in whatever frame and phraseology works best for them.

If I were to phrase it differently, I wish that everyone could become truly Christ-like – that we could be a radically diverse family but united in unconditional love. Everything else, imo, flows from that core, INTERNAL orientation.

Andrew, you said: “So, for me, I would like to think that if someone gets something out of the church, it’s a way to be a better person.” That is what I am saying, as well, at the heart of it all.

The churches influence, I’ve learned, comes at many levels as Andrew S. points out. I haven’t appreciated this point before I came to the bloggernacle.

To answer the question, I will say as a minimum, I hope everyone will have some degree of understanding that they are a child of God.

Like Andrew, the one thing that I’ve been able to take away from the Church is the culture. I come from an Irish Catholic family where warmth and humor are foreign and even seemingly unwelcome, so imagine the impression I got when I first went into a Sacrament Meeting and was greeted and hugged even though the people didn’t know me. I still think that is mainly why I chose to get baptized – for the welcoming warmth and concern most people in the Church showed me. People from my ward still call and write to see how I am, and even send me baskets at Christmastime. It is truly a unique and wonderful experience for me. I’ve attended a lot of other Christian Churches out of curiosity in my days and to this day have never come across a Church and its people that are more Christ-like than the LDS Church.