I was raised in a dysfunctional inactive LDS home (dad from Pioneer stock but never practiced principles and mom was a “convert” from New York who was never truly converted). I was drawn to Church in my youth because all the families seemed happy and loving. Grew up in Northern Arizona, a predominantly LDS and Catholic area, and many loving members helped me attend church… They could not, however, teach me the many things lacking in my own home (such as mentally healthy ways to work through life’s really tough challenges, marriage being one). Both of my parents being previously divorced had entered into their marriage quickly [3 weeks after meeting] and constantly questioned if they should throw in the towel and get divorced. My father’s dysfunctional approach to particularly bad spousal arguments was to grab his handgun and threaten to end his life. My mother later adopted this method and threatened to end all our kids’ lives and then her own before my father came home from work if the 8 of us didn’t stop fighting — nice problem-solving, coping mechanism to model for your kids! Suffice it to say I had no meaningful idea what the Temple was really all about (our family couldn’t even make it to church, much less think about the Temple).

At the age of 20, after completing my Associate’s Degree and preparing to attend ASU, and having dated in the very large young Single’s Wards in Phoenix/Mesa, I met my non-member husband at the restaurant where I worked. Erik was visiting his Great-Aunt in Mesa from his new home in California (he’s originally from Minnesota). We struck up a long-distance relationship and he shocked me 9 months later during Christmas when he proposed. I knew he was a good person, without being raised LDS (didn’t try things that returned missionaries I’d been out with had, etc) — but I didn’t feel I knew him well enough to get married (he’s 7 years older than I, so apparently he knew what he was looking for). I was in a transitional period and decided I could enroll at Cal State just as well as ASU. I was also living in a co-ed situation since my friend’s brother, and his friend, had moved into our condo (owned by her mother). So I moved to Califonia, got a job and enrolled in school. I lived chastely with Erik as he knew my values and did not pressure me. He took the missionary discussions and didn’t have any objections to what he was taught. However, I learned they could not ask him to be baptized due to our living arrangements — didn’t matter that I knew we were living chastely — that was the rule. I knew he was a good person (how can you go wrong with a man who goes out of his way to visit his Great-Aunt?) and my grandmother used to say, “All you really know about someone after 50 years of marriage is their bad habits”. So we were married by the Bishop in Laguna Beach with our reception at Las Brisas (for anyone who knows the area). My experience had always been that people join the Church after investigating it and that WAS the direction Erik had expressed interest. I didn’t negotiate it as pre-condition. However, he did exercise his free agency to not continue in that direction and here we are 20 years later. I have always told myself that I made the choice to make the marriage vows, that I should honor them, and eternity will work itself out — as Hawk has said, how do we know we’ll make it to the CK on our own accord anyway!?!

Like many marriages, we’ve had our highs and lows… We had difficulty conceiving a child and were finally blessed with a beautiful daughter 5 years into our marriage. Desperately wanted a sibling for her (both of us being from large families), but 14+ miscarriages later (over 13 years of trying), I realized I’m one of those mysterious Miscarriage Syndromes that all our hi-tech infertility treatments couldn’t help. Did I question if God had closed my womb because of my marriage outside the Covenant… Yes. We can’t adopt thru LDS Social Services because it requires full-member couples, ditto for Lutheran Family Services, Catholic Charities… we even had two close calls with adopting thru Foster Care. During this time, one of my brothers used my parents’ problem-solving example and took his life when he was 27 (I was 28, we were the closest in the family). Add this to the equation with my husband being the silent stoic Norwegian/German (having been raised Lutheran), and he didn’t know how to be there for me — emotionally or spiritually. I worked through it on my own, believing that God is loving and just — and that he knew my brother was a good person and knew his heart (he was going through the pain of not only his wife leaving him and taking their daughter, but then a break-up with his subsequent girlfriend who had a son the same age as his daughter — and he wasn’t a drinker, but had been drinking that night he ended his life).

We’ve been the focus of many, many Ward Missionary efforts. Erik has met and sent home dozens of missionaries. Things came to a peak as our daughter approached her 8th birthday… that’s also when he decided to wander into the world of online porn (his way of rebelling against the full court press he was feeling). Trust me, I know from experience you cannot force someone’s will. I was devastated. Fortunately, it was a short-lived transgression (maybe 6 weeks) and we worked through it. Then Erik was going to find a church we could both feel comfortable attending. I supported him in this effort, feeling we should build upon on commonalities (both being Christian and believing in the Bible). Two years later, after very little effort on his part (most men will agree, if they ignore the problem long enough it will go away, right?), well I’d given it an honest try and so then let him know I wasn’t ever going to leave the Church and asked if he would just join our daughter and me in attending church. This has been our “arrangement” for the last 8 years. Erik is a workaholic and I have no doubt if he were active in the Church, he would be the one attending all the meetings and leaving me to tend the house — as he does now.

Teaching Sunday School/Primary, Activity Days, Young Women’s, Relief Society, Gospel Doctrine and this year EARLY MORNING Seminary (6:00-6:45am EVERY school day)… while working full-time as well (I’ve always felt the need to be self-sufficient in case something happened to my husband — his father died at 45 and so did his grandfather). But at this point, I’m REALLY, REALLY tired — and facing my 42nd birthday next month. Recently my brother who lives nearest me and is the only other Church member (our blended family is spread all over the country and he is my only blood related brother still living), was diagnosed with a fatal liver disease; he’s older than I am but married later and has 3- and 4-year-old kids. Our parents have still never made it to the Temple (in their 70′s now) and we don’t have much of a relationship with them — the two siblings who do live near them are meth addicts who don’t take care of their kids (and our parents enable their co-dependent behavior)…BIG mess!!

I came across this blog totally by accident…
This morning we took our daughter for her Patriarchal Blessing (mine has been a source of strength and encouragement for me my entire life). I’d never met our Stake Patriarch (it’s a large area and we’re in different Wards), but he’s a Scandinavian who also served a Scandinavian mission with his wife and family in the 70′s (back when they did that). He really connected with Erik and invited Erik to give a prayer before the Blessing, and Erik gave a beautiful prayer, our daughter gushed tears as she’d never really seen him pray outside our home.

The Patriarch’s wife shared a book her family recently helped published here in the Midwest… “When the Saints Come Marching Home in St. Louis” about LDS members being welcomed back to Missouri after the infamous “Extermination Order” and I was online looking for that when this blog came up. My LDS heritage goes to Nauvoo and my daughter and I were blessed to represent our ancestors at the Nauvoo Temple re-dedication a few years ago, so looking forward to reading this book about people who accept and respect other people — no matter what their religion is. I was glad to see the respectful discussion that occurred here and wanted to share my story. Sorry for being so long-winded — I’ve never blogged, as you can tell.

In my experience, #82, Jen, hit the nail on the head:

#82. Even when two people love each other, it can be very difficult to manage a relationship when beliefs are very different from the other. It may not seem justified to those not living with it everyday, but I have no doubt that it can be a very painful and lonely life for both of the spouses. I am sure there are those who make hasty decisions and may end a marriage prematurely, but I am sure there are others who struggle deeply not knowing what to do and really try to do what is best for all involved. It is not an easy situation for anyone.

To address Hawk’s main point… Should the Church make more concerted efforts to help families put the Family first?

ABSOLUTELY! I’ve been feeling we have too many meetings and not enough charitable ACTIONS in the Church. Especially living in a predominantly Catholic community, and many other faithful denominations, I have many more non-LDS friend and I see SO MANY wonderful acts of charity being done — yet we tout and pat ourselves on the back for spreading the Gospel and let it end there. I think we need to stop working ourselves to death with the depth of our lay-ministry programs — which today’s youth DO NOT get as much out of as they would ACTUALLY SERVING THE NEEDY. Our nation has been so blessed during our time of prosperity that the youth have become very spoiled (entitlement attitude). We need to scale-back working ourselves to death dreaming up over-the-top programs/lessons preaching to them and let them engage in the work. Actually performing service is the truest way to share and feel Christ’s love. I’ve been wanting to write this letter to President Monson and this has been a test run. What do you all think?

I am sorry you had to experience that. I am glad you shared your experience bc I think it adds a lot to this conversation of opinions and theories. I am also glad you expressed that you were “convinced.” I know many who are divorced who look back and wonder if they should have given it more time or another try. I hope you don’t feel you stayed in too long, and I’m not saying that you did, I’m just trying to say that I am glad you have the comfort of conviction because many don’t have that while wishing that they did. And welcome aboard, this is the first time I have seen a post from you!

Dex – “Obviously, relationships are extremely tricky and difficult to predict, which is why, I think the individual needs to stop looking for answers from a church leader (and why the church should avoid giving answers). The ins and outs of a relationship are just too complex.” I totally agree.

This was me for BOTH reasons a) and b). I was fully prepared to live in a loveless marriage—and even to force myself to relearn love for my spouse—because it was the right thing to do. I thought it was a gift I could give my spouse. I watched, one by one, each of my dreams and hopes for the future be crushed under the other person’s desires. It took a frightening physical confrontation combined with a complete lack of ownership to it to convince me that I was doing myself, my children and my covenants no favors.

It is good to see that others can learn this without living it.

You said you and I might disagree on this statement that I made: “I think the spouse in the marriage needs to take a hard look at whether continuing the marriage would be more or less likely to lead to her happiness?”

In what way?

Because it seems to me “happiness” would include all the issues one could possibly consider. For example, one might think: if I leave I could be with someone who has the same interests and goals and beliefs, but this would have to be countered with feelings of abandoning someone based on their belief, giving up on a relationship that could turn back around, giving up on someone who could turn back around in their beliefs, etc., etc. Even if someone stayed in a relationship they thought would not improve I would still say they decided to do what they thought would most likely make them happy. Even if they aren’t happy in the marriage, to choose to stay would imply a belief that to abandon the relationship, no mattter how bad, would bring worse feelings than the ones the person has in the marriage. Or one could think the satisfaction of sticking with your spouse, no matter what, would ultimately bring more happiness than giving up. My comment, I believe, encompassed all the possible feelings and pros/cons. Ultimately, though, people choose everyday to stay in a marriage (or get out of one) based on what they believe is most likely to bring them happiness. Same can be said on their choice to stay in the house they are in, or in the job they are in. I stand by my initial comment, and I would be curious to hear any comments if anyone disagrees.

LTU makes an important point worth reiterating. It is not good to approach your marriage as a method of “fixing” your spouse – whether that’s an unbelieving spouse hoping to share their disaffection with their believing spouse or vice-versa. Marriage requires adaption. It is not a guarantee. How we treat people is more important (IM possibly heterodox O) than what we hope to get from that relationship in terms of our own salvation. In short, I think it more likely that a judgmental, non-Christian attitude towards an unbelieving spouse is more damning than being married to a faithful, loving unbeliever who is a good parent but doesn’t practice the LDS religion. But again, marriages fail for many reasons, and not every unbeliever is easy to live with. Nor are all believers. Frankly, it’s marriage. No one is easy to live with every day for the rest of your lives.

Dexter – I’ll reserve my astonishment for a cited authoritative church resource that contradicts what I’ve said. As you point out at the end of your comment, there likely isn’t one coming. I agree that the church’s view is necessarily vague because of the complexity of marriage, and I’m glad they aren’t more instructive. Each situation is different. Each marriage is complex. However, where I feel you and I might disagree is this statement: “I think the spouse in the marriage needs to take a hard look at whether continuing the marriage would be more or less likely to lead to her happiness.” I guess that depends on how we view happiness. Is it a right that a person thinks they have that their spouse will never change? That’s unrealistic. Do we leave at the first sign of disagreement? That’s too easy. But you are right that many factors have to be considered, including the maturity of the people in the marriage.

As many have mentioned, whether your spouse believes or not is only one of many factors that would come into play if one is considering divorce. But even if one could isolate just this one factor, the spouse choosing to no longer be a part of the church, it would still vary in degree for each believer and each couple as to how much that fact affects the spouse who still believes. Further, how long they have been married, whether they have kids, what options the believing spouse would have if she decided to leave the marriage (some of you may find this to be an inappropriate factor to consider but I think it is very relevant) etc., etc., would all play a huge role.

I think it should be looked at from this practical perspective. I think the spouse in the marriage needs to take a hard look at whether continuing the marriage would be more or less likely to lead to her happiness. I think the church shouldn’t really have a line of advice to give on this issue. It’s too different for every person and each person ultimately would have to decide their best shot at happiness. For some, it would be to stay together. For some, divorce would be best. It’s too complicated of an issue, in my opinion, to have a “view” that the church should encourage the couple to work it out or encourage the couple to split up.

Therefore, Nick, your question is not one that I can easily answer because it is not nearly as simple as you lay it out and because I feel it is inappropriate to judge others in their choices. I will share what I have decided for myself, and the reasons therefore if asked, but I will not make blanket judgments on hypothetical and oversimplified situations. I do not make judgments simply because a person might be insecure in their own decisions and desire my validation. I may not agree with them, but I feel their choices lie between them and God, and perhaps whatever people are called to stand in His stead. Unless I am called to be one of those people, I am content to let others believe what they wish, so long as they are content to let me believe what I wish.

I think remaining in a marriage in the hopes that it will change is equally potentially wrong to leaving a marriage with the belief that it will not change. It is true that no one can judge another, but the Spirit can, and can also guide the “believing spouse” to the correct course of action when mortal reason, effort and knowledge fail.

Emotional and verbal abuse is often subtle. I have learned for myself that it is often so subtle that the victims themselves have difficulty pinpointing it. In fact, that is part of the point. Like an infection, it is far easier to see the damage than the cause.

I think it is difficult for two so differently-minded people to both refrain from emotional abuse, especially in cases where one spouse believes and the other not only disbelieves, but believes against. Possible, but difficult. It is a tricky thing to recognize such abuse and fight against it. It is far easier when physical assault is involved. I am fortunate in that my situation began to turn physical, and far earlier than some.

Hawk do you have any statements on this?

I’ve also met many disaffected people on-line whose believing spouses took a hard line stance with them, either driving their disaffection into the closet (only to emerge later with the fury of repression) or creating an untenable marriage as a result in which one spouse’s will completely dominates and controls the other’s. Was it the disaffected spouse’s fault or the believing spouse’s fault? I say both if a believing spouse ceases to love and support their spouse over a difference in belief when that spouse continues to be faithful in the marriage. I’ve also cited scripture above from the NT and D&C to support that position. I don’t believe I am out on a limb with this one, although I freely acknowledge it would be difficult to work through, and that marriage is seldom as simplistic as a one-issue discussion.

I’m consistently surprised by the justification people feel for leaving their spouses over difference in belief. I have yet to see advice sanctioned by the church supporting spousal abandonment over this issue, but I am prepared to be astonished should someone point it out.

“I am astonished at the attitude that we are able to judge when people are beyond hope. How often have you seen a person return from the pits of despair or a convert forsake their sins?”

Lighten up, my friend, we are, as been mentioned to you, talking in hypotheticals and, up to your comments, doing quite well at it. No one here is suggesting any specific course of action for anyone. This is a very difficult thing to go through and decide what is the best way to resolve it.

Please don’t stir the bottom of the pot on this.

“OK, let’s go even further on your “no kids” example. What if the spouse can’t have kids? What if the other spouse wants biological kids and doesn’t want to adopt? Does that mean they should be kicked to the curb for being infertile? Clearly, all would agree that’s harsh and unjustified.’

Yep I agree. But that is a totally different case of “want to, but can’t” as opposed to “said I did, but now I don’t.” So, the issue is not whether you kick someone you love and want to be with to the curb willy-nilly, but that two people who had mutual goals and understanding, which served as the premise for getting married in the first, now do not. The fact is that no one is really beyond hope and so any decision must be carefully considered, prayed about, fasted about and then action taken based on the whole picture, not just the one thing.

But, I am sure you know, that some things can be a non-negotiable.

“If you accept president kimball’s estimation, it’s exponentially more difficult to accept the gospel and repent in the next life, and it’s dramatically moreso for a member who has broken covenants.”

You captured my feelings with this comment.

I agree with what you are saying. I am sure it can be very painful to be married to someone who was originally active in the church and then who chooses to turn away from it and wants nothing to do with it. It really does change a lot of things in a marriage because being an active member of the church involves a lot of time, especially if you have children. To have a spouse pull away from that creates a distancing between one another in time spent doing the same things together. All of the sudden one spouse is at church for 3 hours (or more)on Sunday and the other is doing something else away from the family. Any adult activities, including going to the temple, are now done alone. When people start spending time apart developing different interests it naturally creates distance and less feelings of being unified. A big focus in marriage is being one and setting goals together. If a spouse not only leaves the church but stops believing in God there can be much less to talk about and not a lot of similar hopes for the future. It may even create tension that can result in arguing depending on how much the spouse has changed. Even when two people love each other, it can be very difficult to manage a relationship when beliefs are very different from the other. It may not seem justified to those not living with it everyday, but I have no doubt that it can be a very painful and lonely life for both of the spouses. I am sure there are those who make hasty decisions and may end a marriage prematurely, but I am sure there are others who struggle deeply not knowing what to do and really try to do what is best for all involved. It is not an easy situation for anyone.