Comments on: Learning and Understanding Vs. Winning Arguments http://mormonmatters.org/2009/06/17/learning-and-understanding-vs-winning-arguments/ Exploring Mormon culture in a balanced way Tue, 16 Mar 2010 01:21:42 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: AdamF http://mormonmatters.org/2009/06/17/learning-and-understanding-vs-winning-arguments/#comment-98223 AdamF Sun, 23 Aug 2009 00:17:24 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5620#comment-98223 Thanks Trevor, I'm glad. I also love sifting through opposing views - it's kind of like reading a summary of all the philosophical views of the western world. Many of them are convincing, yet many of them disagree. It is hard at first but after a while one's own view begins to form out of the mess. Thanks Trevor, I’m glad. I also love sifting through opposing views – it’s kind of like reading a summary of all the philosophical views of the western world. Many of them are convincing, yet many of them disagree. It is hard at first but after a while one’s own view begins to form out of the mess.

]]> By: Trevor M http://mormonmatters.org/2009/06/17/learning-and-understanding-vs-winning-arguments/#comment-88716 Trevor M Mon, 06 Jul 2009 16:25:30 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5620#comment-88716 This has been a fun and engaging post to read. As with others who posted here I tend to be one of the lurkers. Often we lurkers watch/read arguments unfold with vouyeuristic pleasure (okay maybe not quite that extreme). The reason I enjoy lurking is simple: I often find myself battling through opposing views in my head trying to make sense of them; this internal battle is often an exhausing process. It is helpful to see the opposing views articulated on blogs. Reading them helps me to organize my thoughts and to make connections I hadn't made before. This helps to diffuse the exhausting internal battle somewhat (though it ever rages onward). Not only do "play to win" tactics not convince the individuals being argued with but they also push away the lurkers. It is much more helpful to lurkers to read well thought out arguments aimed at understanding and learning from each other. (and since you are all here just for the lurkers' voyeuristic pleasure I am sure you will all take this under consideration....) Trevor M *Advocate for Lurkers* This has been a fun and engaging post to read. As with others who posted here I tend to be one of the lurkers. Often we lurkers watch/read arguments unfold with vouyeuristic pleasure (okay maybe not quite that extreme).

The reason I enjoy lurking is simple: I often find myself battling through opposing views in my head trying to make sense of them; this internal battle is often an exhausing process. It is helpful to see the opposing views articulated on blogs. Reading them helps me to organize my thoughts and to make connections I hadn’t made before. This helps to diffuse the exhausting internal battle somewhat (though it ever rages onward).

Not only do “play to win” tactics not convince the individuals being argued with but they also push away the lurkers.

It is much more helpful to lurkers to read well thought out arguments aimed at understanding and learning from each other. (and since you are all here just for the lurkers’ voyeuristic pleasure I am sure you will all take this under consideration….)

Trevor M
*Advocate for Lurkers*

]]> By: Blain http://mormonmatters.org/2009/06/17/learning-and-understanding-vs-winning-arguments/#comment-84884 Blain Sat, 20 Jun 2009 07:19:00 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5620#comment-84884 I'm beginning to wonder if there is a point to reading and responding to blogs for me. I come looking for conversation where people listen to differing opinions, consider them, and respond honestly and respectfully. I find something like it occasionally, but I find way more defense of sacred cattle (often when nobody is even looking at the cattle), and absolute refusal to consider any other viewpoint than what was brought to the conversation. And way, way too much "us v them." There are some key individuals that keep me coming back, but I'm finding that it's just easier to write what I want to say in response to the original post, and, having got it off my chest, to just delete it, rather than see what I said twisted into something I could be beaten up with. 19 -- There is no fence. 23 -- Been there. Lived it. Recently even. Hate it. Absolutely hate it. 33 -- But did you LOL out loud? I’m beginning to wonder if there is a point to reading and responding to blogs for me. I come looking for conversation where people listen to differing opinions, consider them, and respond honestly and respectfully. I find something like it occasionally, but I find way more defense of sacred cattle (often when nobody is even looking at the cattle), and absolute refusal to consider any other viewpoint than what was brought to the conversation. And way, way too much “us v them.” There are some key individuals that keep me coming back, but I’m finding that it’s just easier to write what I want to say in response to the original post, and, having got it off my chest, to just delete it, rather than see what I said twisted into something I could be beaten up with.

19 — There is no fence.

23 — Been there. Lived it. Recently even. Hate it. Absolutely hate it.

33 — But did you LOL out loud?

]]> By: Jeff Spector http://mormonmatters.org/2009/06/17/learning-and-understanding-vs-winning-arguments/#comment-84844 Jeff Spector Fri, 19 Jun 2009 23:59:19 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5620#comment-84844 I play to whine I play to whine

]]> By: adamf http://mormonmatters.org/2009/06/17/learning-and-understanding-vs-winning-arguments/#comment-84349 adamf Thu, 18 Jun 2009 18:44:35 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5620#comment-84349 Hahahaha, I think my byline should read: AdamF *pretends to value understanding, but it is actually a defense against feeling like he's losing* Hahahaha, I think my byline should read:

AdamF
*pretends to value understanding, but it is actually a defense against feeling like he’s losing*

]]> By: Jeff Spector http://mormonmatters.org/2009/06/17/learning-and-understanding-vs-winning-arguments/#comment-84256 Jeff Spector Thu, 18 Jun 2009 16:49:19 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5620#comment-84256 RAY IS GREAT. (not a paid announcement) :) RAY IS GREAT.

(not a paid announcement) :)

]]> By: Andrew S http://mormonmatters.org/2009/06/17/learning-and-understanding-vs-winning-arguments/#comment-84250 Andrew S Thu, 18 Jun 2009 16:36:32 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5620#comment-84250 and with that, my message in 36 scattered to the four winds... B-) ~Andrew S. *plays to win* and with that, my message in 36 scattered to the four winds…

B-)

~Andrew S.
*plays to win*

]]> By: Dexter http://mormonmatters.org/2009/06/17/learning-and-understanding-vs-winning-arguments/#comment-84249 Dexter Thu, 18 Jun 2009 16:34:25 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5620#comment-84249 I don't play to win. I win. I don’t play to win. I win.

]]> By: Andrew S http://mormonmatters.org/2009/06/17/learning-and-understanding-vs-winning-arguments/#comment-84248 Andrew S Thu, 18 Jun 2009 16:32:32 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5620#comment-84248 actually, I would go one step further re 35 Strong Silent Type. People who play to win don't *even* win in their own mind, because their (at least *my*) goal is not necessarily to convince themselves of their position, but to convince others. Losing credibility and turning off listeners is one of the worst feelings ever, and when I realize I'm doing it, I generally back off. Not saying I apologize or anything or make restitution, but I think many "players to win" realize that they become ineffective advocates and are frustrated about that. However, this doesn't really help, because instead of realizing that the problem *is* their competitive/play-to-win attitude, they think that the problem is just in tactics. When the real goal should be to stop caring about winning at all. ~Andrew S. *plays to win* actually, I would go one step further re 35 Strong Silent Type.

People who play to win don’t *even* win in their own mind, because their (at least *my*) goal is not necessarily to convince themselves of their position, but to convince others. Losing credibility and turning off listeners is one of the worst feelings ever, and when I realize I’m doing it, I generally back off.

Not saying I apologize or anything or make restitution, but I think many “players to win” realize that they become ineffective advocates and are frustrated about that.

However, this doesn’t really help, because instead of realizing that the problem *is* their competitive/play-to-win attitude, they think that the problem is just in tactics. When the real goal should be to stop caring about winning at all.

~Andrew S.
*plays to win*

]]> By: Strong Silent Type http://mormonmatters.org/2009/06/17/learning-and-understanding-vs-winning-arguments/#comment-84243 Strong Silent Type Thu, 18 Jun 2009 16:20:32 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5620#comment-84243 The problem with people who "play to win" is that they're not truly open-minded enough to consider they may be wrong, and their style is so abrasive and obnoxious that it damages their credibility and turns off listeners. So people who "play to win" never actually "win" anything except in their own mind, which is not really an achievement because they were already convinced of the rightness of their position to begin with. It's amazing to me how people who "play to win", who typically consider themselves to be at the top of the intellectual food chain, can have such a lack of self-awareness and fail to recognize how their abrasive and obnoxious style actually makes them ineffective advocates. The problem with people who “play to win” is that they’re not truly open-minded enough to consider they may be wrong, and their style is so abrasive and obnoxious that it damages their credibility and turns off listeners. So people who “play to win” never actually “win” anything except in their own mind, which is not really an achievement because they were already convinced of the rightness of their position to begin with.

It’s amazing to me how people who “play to win”, who typically consider themselves to be at the top of the intellectual food chain, can have such a lack of self-awareness and fail to recognize how their abrasive and obnoxious style actually makes them ineffective advocates.

]]> By: mh http://mormonmatters.org/2009/06/17/learning-and-understanding-vs-winning-arguments/#comment-84028 mh Thu, 18 Jun 2009 01:05:15 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5620#comment-84028 Sorry Ray, I'm a relative newcomer, and I don't read every single post like you do. (You are amazing in the amount of material you read--and I mean that in all sincerity. Sorry Ray, I’m a relative newcomer, and I don’t read every single post like you do. (You are amazing in the amount of material you read–and I mean that in all sincerity.

]]> By: adamf http://mormonmatters.org/2009/06/17/learning-and-understanding-vs-winning-arguments/#comment-84025 adamf Thu, 18 Jun 2009 00:56:23 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5620#comment-84025 This is one of the few times I have actually LOLed while reading a blog. This is one of the few times I have actually LOLed while reading a blog.

]]> By: adamf http://mormonmatters.org/2009/06/17/learning-and-understanding-vs-winning-arguments/#comment-84024 adamf Thu, 18 Jun 2009 00:55:32 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5620#comment-84024 Dang it Ray, I wanted mh to think I had an original thought independent of you. Dang it Ray, I wanted mh to think I had an original thought independent of you.

]]> By: Ray http://mormonmatters.org/2009/06/17/learning-and-understanding-vs-winning-arguments/#comment-84023 Ray Thu, 18 Jun 2009 00:55:04 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5620#comment-84023 Oh, yes you do, Adam - but I'm not sure it would be appropriate to turn them in this forum. :D OK, time's up. You've been great. Try to talk at ya' tomorrow. Oh, yes you do, Adam – but I’m not sure it would be appropriate to turn them in this forum. :D

OK, time’s up. You’ve been great. Try to talk at ya’ tomorrow.

]]> By: Ray http://mormonmatters.org/2009/06/17/learning-and-understanding-vs-winning-arguments/#comment-84022 Ray Thu, 18 Jun 2009 00:53:52 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5620#comment-84022 mh, wake up and read all the posts, dude! I was the one who called myself that. If yor're going to try to insult someone, at least give it the old college try! (and I mean that in even kindlier regards than your kindly regards) mh, wake up and read all the posts, dude! I was the one who called myself that. If yor’re going to try to insult someone, at least give it the old college try! (and I mean that in even kindlier regards than your kindly regards)

]]> By: adamf http://mormonmatters.org/2009/06/17/learning-and-understanding-vs-winning-arguments/#comment-84021 adamf Thu, 18 Jun 2009 00:53:08 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5620#comment-84021 Ray, sheesh. I have no more cheeks to turn! Ray, sheesh. I have no more cheeks to turn!

]]> By: mh http://mormonmatters.org/2009/06/17/learning-and-understanding-vs-winning-arguments/#comment-84019 mh Thu, 18 Jun 2009 00:43:30 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5620#comment-84019 I agree with Adam. Ray you are a fence jumper! Phfffffft!! (And I mean that in the kindest regards.) :) I agree with Adam. Ray you are a fence jumper! Phfffffft!! (And I mean that in the kindest regards.) :)

]]> By: Dexter http://mormonmatters.org/2009/06/17/learning-and-understanding-vs-winning-arguments/#comment-84018 Dexter Thu, 18 Jun 2009 00:40:42 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5620#comment-84018 Thank you for the invite but I must decline. I have too many responsibilities keeping this site going as it is. And I don't think your post was offensive to either Jared or Ray, but that was nice of you to say that. Thank you for the invite but I must decline.

I have too many responsibilities keeping this site going as it is.

And I don’t think your post was offensive to either Jared or Ray, but that was nice of you to say that.

]]> By: Ray http://mormonmatters.org/2009/06/17/learning-and-understanding-vs-winning-arguments/#comment-84017 Ray Thu, 18 Jun 2009 00:37:50 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5620#comment-84017 Holy Crap, Holden!! I went back to my new office to have some reading time, and now I have to clean off both my and my co-worker's desks. Spit takes like that should be illegal. Thanks, Drew. You're not a butthead like Adam. (As I said once to Nick, Adam, I'd blow you a kiss, but people would talk - although I'm without a calling right now, so this might be the best time for people to talk. Maybe I can get a permanent calling in the nursery. Oops, not if people are talking about me blowing a kiss to another guy. *SIGH* Maybe I will be the next YW President, instead! [Love you, Nick!]) Holy Crap, Holden!! I went back to my new office to have some reading time, and now I have to clean off both my and my co-worker’s desks. Spit takes like that should be illegal.

Thanks, Drew. You’re not a butthead like Adam. (As I said once to Nick, Adam, I’d blow you a kiss, but people would talk – although I’m without a calling right now, so this might be the best time for people to talk. Maybe I can get a permanent calling in the nursery. Oops, not if people are talking about me blowing a kiss to another guy. *SIGH* Maybe I will be the next YW President, instead! [Love you, Nick!])

]]> By: adamf http://mormonmatters.org/2009/06/17/learning-and-understanding-vs-winning-arguments/#comment-84016 adamf Thu, 18 Jun 2009 00:34:22 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5620#comment-84016 Dexter, Ray is a fence jumper, so if I added you, I'd have to add Jared as well to balance it out again. No offense to either of you. ;) Dexter, Ray is a fence jumper, so if I added you, I’d have to add Jared as well to balance it out again. No offense to either of you. ;)

]]> By: Holden Caulfield http://mormonmatters.org/2009/06/17/learning-and-understanding-vs-winning-arguments/#comment-84015 Holden Caulfield Thu, 18 Jun 2009 00:27:24 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5620#comment-84015 I have "WWRD" as my personalized license plate. I have “WWRD” as my personalized license plate.

]]> By: Dexter http://mormonmatters.org/2009/06/17/learning-and-understanding-vs-winning-arguments/#comment-84013 Dexter Thu, 18 Jun 2009 00:26:51 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5620#comment-84013 Number 5 is the most frustrating to me. I hate when I make a point and someone simply attacks a very minor tangential point I may have made without addressing the thrust of my argument. This is the first blog that I have ever visited more than twice, so I have been learning as I go. I definitely think this is a helpful list and I appreciate those who make efforts to find understanding and common ground. Finding a consensus on an issue is very satisfying, especially when you may have fundamentally opposing views. That is why I return. And to teach you all. ;) Please add consult Dexter as number 8 since we need balance on the site. :) Number 5 is the most frustrating to me. I hate when I make a point and someone simply attacks a very minor tangential point I may have made without addressing the thrust of my argument.

This is the first blog that I have ever visited more than twice, so I have been learning as I go. I definitely think this is a helpful list and I appreciate those who make efforts to find understanding and common ground. Finding a consensus on an issue is very satisfying, especially when you may have fundamentally opposing views. That is why I return.

And to teach you all. ;)

Please add consult Dexter as number 8 since we need balance on the site. :)

]]> By: DrewE http://mormonmatters.org/2009/06/17/learning-and-understanding-vs-winning-arguments/#comment-84000 DrewE Wed, 17 Jun 2009 23:32:01 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5620#comment-84000 Number 7 is my favorite. If we could all comment like Ray, Mormon Matters would undergo a divine transfiguration. Seriously, Ray has been one of the only bloggers to make me step back and examine myself when I am guilty of the 6 negative approaches listed. That is a lesson in itself for me. Number 7 is my favorite. If we could all comment like Ray, Mormon Matters would undergo a divine transfiguration. Seriously, Ray has been one of the only bloggers to make me step back and examine myself when I am guilty of the 6 negative approaches listed. That is a lesson in itself for me.

]]> By: Dexter http://mormonmatters.org/2009/06/17/learning-and-understanding-vs-winning-arguments/#comment-83989 Dexter Wed, 17 Jun 2009 23:06:07 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5620#comment-83989 Bu-doom......CHING!!!!!!! Bu-doom……CHING!!!!!!!

]]> By: AdamF http://mormonmatters.org/2009/06/17/learning-and-understanding-vs-winning-arguments/#comment-83987 AdamF Wed, 17 Jun 2009 23:01:52 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=5620#comment-83987 *turns the other cheek* *turns the other cheek*

]]>