Are you suggesting that some members believe that “the only true and living church” means that people in other faiths do not have spiritual experiences just like we do? Also, I would need to think more about it, but I suspect that the “only true and living church” idea is one that means a lot to many members, including those who feel that God speaks to other people as well. I would have to let the speak for themselves though. For me, the belief is not important in the sense of a “I’m right and they’re wrong” kind of way. There have been much better posts here on this topic though (i.e. better than I could do).

I can relate to that, with some other members, anyway, certainly not all. Many of my LDS friends and family would respond to something like that with “isn’t God great that he is watching over ALL of his children?”

A good friend of mine is the minister of a large Presbyterian congregation in South Carolina. I told him the story of how I was recently on a business trip to India and went to a Hindu temple. I was overwhelmed by the very recognizable attitude of worship that I saw in the people there. My LDS upbringing let me instantly recognize an outpouring of the Spirit, even though the icons and symbols were so different from the religion I knew. The devotion, faith and hope for divine intercession their daily affairs was utterly familiar. I was unable to distinguish what I experienced there from the fervor of an LDS testimony meeting.

My friend the pastor listened to this story and then told me that he feels that God has called him to be faithful within his tradition but that his community of faith is not inherently privileged, more valued by God or “correct” than any other. His moorings seemed to be quite intact. He was confident of his relationship with God and the value of his ministry to others. I was struck by how his acceptance of other traditions gave his faith strength, resilience and even a kind of maturity.

When I tell this story to fellow Mormons, the air gets thick. Before I even finish, the answers are already formed. In essence, the Hindu religious experience can’t be real because there are no priesthood keys to confer the gift of the Holy Ghost, etc. This devolves into hair splitting over the definitions of light of Christ versus Holy Ghost, etc. It ends up being a long, tortured and thoroughly unsatisfying discussion, at least for me.

My conclusion is that exclusive access to gifts of the Spirit does not make faith stronger, although it does push us toward stronger sectarian divisions.

It is something that I cannot deny.” My mother’s experience was very dramatic as well. She had been catechized as a Lutheran and their class was told they had received the HG. She said she didn’t feel anything, and she asked her friend who was sitting next to her, and she said she didn’t either. But when she was baptized and confirmed at age 28, she said she clearly felt the HG as a physical sensation during the confirmation process. Perhaps conversion was the difference. Perhaps it was her age. Perhaps it was the HG. She would not deny her experience, to be sure, or its meaning to her.

I have never had any sense of having the Spirit with me or not with me, can’t discern a thing, never have. What I used to think were “promptings” and being “warned of danger” in hindsight was clearly a severe anxiety disorder (I was pretty much prompted to never leave the house). What inspired me to pray fervently and work hard at my church callings and read the scriptures was fear. Where others talked about feeling the Spirit in meetings or being supported and inspired by the Spirit in their callings, all I got was a cold, sick, tight feeling in my chest. All things church-related have been a source of misery, desperate pleading in prayer for help not withstanding.

I’ve had to teach a few lessons on the Holy Ghost and it’s difficult, since the concept is basically meaningless to me. A theory that seems not to hold up in application. At least not for me.

Hawk – I was baptized in the LDS church at age 18 and have some basis for comparison of pre- and post-gift of the HG.

I remember reading the Bible when I was little, wondering about the resurrection versus the teachings of my religion at that time of how a person went to live with God after they died (“Well, are they taken out of heaven for the final judgment, hoping to get back there after they’re resurrected?” Of course, I was only 9 or so and there’s much more to it than that.). Suffice it to say that I knew / wondered things back then, for a long time, and learned of their truth later on. Kind of like a radio in my home that picks up some stations more clearly in one part of my home than others. You could say the gift of the HG put me in a better spot now.

Following that little analogy, you could say that following my confirmation things became pretty clear and tend to remain that way provided I do what I know and believe to be correct (in which “correct” is entirely subjective). It was as if I was searching pre-HG gift with a flashlight and post-HG gift with the lights on in the room. I had some of it before, what we refer to as the Light of Christ, and a little more after I was confirmed.

I do not know that I necessarily *always* have it with me though I have experienced some surprise at its’ sudden absence when I wasn’t fully aware of its presence. Does that make any sense at all? Maybe I don’t always know when it’s around, but I know when it’s not.

Being in my certain “frequency sensitive” spot in my “house” I’m also aware that I may stand right where I need to be and sway just a little and the “channel” becomes fuzzy, not as clear. What I endeavor to do is sway a little closer to center as often as possible and listen as hard as I can for the intermittent messages sent my way.

And the “room” I mention? It’s all about understanding more fully the atonement and my relationship to the God I love. When I lose sight of that and humor my pride, the “channel” gets fuzzy. Sometimes it’s tough to stand still and keep from falling over completely.

I agree with the thought that there is more to making a mistake. However, we are human and as long as we are in this mortal life we will continue to make mistakes. I have to go with the Catholics on this in their idea about sins of commission and omission. When deliberately done I believe the Spirit does tug away at us. In sins of omission (done because we are human) we are gently reminded that we have done wrong and that something now seperates us from God. We repent of the sin and move. Sins of commission are very different and most people spend time deliberating the sinful act before doing. The Spirit warns us that what we are about to do is wrong and yet we decide to sin – this is when there is a seperation of choice – pushing Him away and not the other way around.

I would also like to say that following commandments alone does not make one close to God. There are plenty of people who tithe, keep the Word of Wisdom and grace the doors of the church any time it is open. These acts alone are not going to bring us close to God and keep the Spirit with us.

“The idea that making a mistake and the Spirit leaving immediately makes the LDS Church less of a joy to be part of. It almost becomes a paranoid game of trying to figure out if you still have the Spirit.”

There is more to it than “making a mistake.” We know right from wrong, we have the HG and the Light of Christ to help us discern. If we choose something we know is wrong, it is we who cause the separation, not the HG. He doesn’t leave so much as we push Him away. In my mind, though, we are never really alone. God never really abandons us. it is we who abandon Him.

“I posed my questions more based on my personal experience, not to understand the theology of it (which is still quite vague when you dig into it)’

I figured that but decided to expound for the benefit of others who may not be as clear on the distinction.

“My mother, who was baptized at 28 has had a very different pre- and post-HG experience. But I don’t really know how that would be.”

I was also baptized at 28. And I had two very profound experiences with the HG pre- and post, exactly the same. One occurred when I received my spiritual witness of the truthfulness of the Gospel after I had intellectually decided it was true and the other when I actually received the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

It is something that I cannot deny.

Every person who comes on this earth must have an opportunity to receive all the blessings of these sealings, if he will accept, sometime before the end of the Millennium. There could not be a just God if it were otherwise.”

Eldred G. Smith, Ensign, Nov 1974

“It is also the Holy Ghost, in His character as the Holy Spirit of Promise, that confirms the validity and efficacy of your covenants and seals God’s promises upon you.”

D. Todd Christofferson, “The Power of Covenants,” Liahona, May 2009, 19–23

Regarding your statement above that “For me, I feel like the Lord knows what will bring me joy more than I could ever know and that is why the companionship of the Holy Ghost is so important to me.” I made a similar statement to a friend who has apostatized and he told me that even though I thought I was relying on the Holy Ghost rather than relying on my own judgment, in actuality I was relying on my own INTERPRETATIONS of PERCEPTIONS that I was attributing to the Holy Ghost. He said no matter which way you go –believing in the Holy Ghost or not believing in the Holy Ghost– in the end you’re relying on your own interpretations of things you believe you’re perceiving, which may or may not be accurate. In other words, if I say “I rely on what the Holy Ghost tells me,” what I’m really saying is “I rely on my interpretations of my perceptions that I attribute to the Holy Ghost”. So either way, I’m relying on my own judgment. In one scenario I recognize I’m relying on my own judgment, in the other scenario I think I’m relying on God’s judgment but am actually relying on my own judgment, which consists of my own interpretations of my own perceptions that I am attributing to the Holy Ghost.

Can you believe my friend would come up with crazy ideas like this? Some people will find a way to rationalize away anything.

Most Protestant Churches teach that once you believe or you are confirmed in the Church you receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost. The Spirit is your constant companion, and if you sin, is there to gently press upon your heart that what you have done is wrong. You repent and keep going. The idea that making a mistake and the Spirit leaving immediately makes the LDS Church less of a joy to be part of. It almost becomes a paranoid game of trying to figure out if you still have the Spirit.

As a member of the Church I am a firm believer that the Spirit is with you – even after sinning. You may get to a point when you have sinned so much that the Spirit departs or even become “immune” to the Spirit. However, God loves us and does not play games with our relationship with Him. If you miss a Sunday or you miss a tithe, the Spirit does not leave. This is a horrible idea that has given credence to the idea that Latter Days Saints are constantly working (miserable) for their salvation.

Derek-

I think with that gift comes great responsibility and accountability. I don’t feel I am any more special than anyone else on this earth, but I do feel that because I have been taught the gospel of Jesus Christ I am much more accountable before God than those who do not have it. I also feel that I have been given all the tools to understand how to love others and not to judge them and I am expected to learn how to do this in this life, not the next. In other words, when God gives you all the materials to build a beautiful ship, you better build it, and then you better offer the comfort it affords to others even if they weren’t a part of the building process.

When we talk of the Holy Ghost versus the “Light of Christ,” we are talking very different things. The “Light of Christ,” which is present in all people is the Spirit of Jesus which can help discern right from wrong, truth from error and is sometimes equate to our “conscience.” While that is a great gift given to all people by Jesus, that is all it is.

The Holy Ghost, the personage of Spirit and part of the Godhead is the second comforter and the testator of ALL truth, not just right from wrong.

“The Holy Ghost undoubtedly possesses personal powers and affections; these attributes exist in Him in perfection. Thus, He teaches and guides, testifies of the Father and the Son, reproves for sin, speaks, commands, and commissions, makes intercession for sinners, is grieved, searches and investigates, entices, and knows all things. These are not figurative expressions, but plain statements of the attributes and characteristics of the Holy Ghost.” Talmadge, Articles of Faith, 144

The Holy Ghost is as real as the Father and The Son.

I agree with you on this. That is what is so wonderful about our ability to choose what we want in life. For me, I feel like the Lord knows what will bring me joy more than I could ever know and that is why the companionship of the Holy Ghost is so important to me. But I also realize that not everyone believes the Lord knows what is best, or that He even exists. I believe that each one of us will be given what we desire and seek after in life and that is exactly how it is supposed to be. Assuming the LDS church is true and is a way to happiness, I don’t believe everyone necessarily wants the type or level of happiness that it offers and many will not choose it. I think we all knew this before we ever came to earth and it is the natural order of things.

I do get rather wordy. My point is this: we must seek our own paths. This doesn’t mean that every path is acceptable and permissible, but rather that our own path — the path that will win us joy — is very personal. To try to codify it into a “one size fits all” package will fail every time, although we can find some commonalities in what generally works for most people. We just need to recognize what is truly common, what is confusing noise, and what differs by person.

I mean, seriously, are we Mormons the luckiest people in the world or what?! If the Gift of the Holy Ghost is something only .2% of the world’s population has today, and 0% of the world’s population had during almost two thousand years of Apostasy, it must be something special! So how could any Mormon ever turn his back on a Gift that only 0% to .02% of the world’s population has ever had?!

I saw that effect with men who fell into sin and lost their membership in the Church.

Situation #1: Viewing or reading media not in keeping with moral standards

Reaction: The comforting feeling of the Spirit departs. A carnal/lustful spirit draws nigh, beckoning reprioritization of how one intended to spend time, risks, and limits.

Alternative explanation: Entrenched guilt from socialization changes the mood; underlying repression of harmless urges is liberated.

Situation #2: Reading Anti-Mormon material

Reaction: The hopeful witness of the Spirit departs. Dread and despair draw nigh; possibly shame–i.e. those who partook of the fruit in front of the great and spacious building.

Alternative explanation: The discomfort is cognitive dissonance. Working through it will induce resocialization which will lead to temporary isolation.

I struggle to follow what your point is, sometimes I think you over analyze things too much. I do agree with you in that just attending church, getting baptized, following commandments, etc. doesn’t necessarily mean we will have the companionship of the Holy Ghost IF our hearts aren’t sincerely trying to seek God and we are just going through the motions. I believe the HG stays with us because our hearts want Him to be with us. We are able to keep our hearts and minds on the Lord through church attendance, following commandments, etc. Human nature tends to focus on what is in front of us and we must be constantly reminded of the things of the God. I feel the HG is a constant reminder as we seek after His companionship.

then Jen, I have to establish that even attending church, getting baptized, following the commandments, and every single activity the church beckons its members to do…has little to do with receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost.

You’re right; it’s *subjective*. This is immensely problematic when you want to claim “the HG will always be prompting us to be closer to God, not further away.” If the church can’t do it, if scripture study and prayer can’t do it, if none of these things can reliably do it, then this is a huge problem

You can’t have the gift of the HG if you don’t attend church, get baptized and receive that gift. Belief is a part of it all, in addition to living a clean, good life. And, I do not easily conceive of things that the church has asked others to do that strike me as wrong and dirty, that is subjective and I don’t feel the same as you in relation to it.

To me, belief is essential in maintaining the gift of the Holy Ghost. In fact, I believe the loss of the HG is directly related to non-belief. The HG will always be prompting us to be closer to God, not further away. It will always teach us that God lives and the He is our Father, not that He is non-existent. When I say “you don’t know what you’ve got til it’s gone, I mean it is obvious to those who offend the HG when they are familiar with its companionship.