I enjoyed your article and your perspective. One thing which I would like to add to the above discussion (and admittedly I didn’t read all the responses so forgive me if someone else brought this up), it’s a mistake to assume that the Hebrew writing system we know today was used and standardized circa 600BC. The writing system we normally associate with Hebrew was actually Babylonian (Chaldean) in origin and didn’t really come into use in the writing of Hebrew until the captivity, after the events outlined in the BOM regarding Lehi and his family leaving Judah and Jerusalem.

Prior to the captivity Hebrew was largely written using Phoenician characters, which themselves, as I understand it, were based on Egyptian alphabetic elements (as opposed to the ideo- and logograms) which had been adopted in cities in southern Palestine and over the years and centuries gradually morphed into what we would recognize as Phoenician or a Paleo-Hebrew script.

During this period in history, languages were typically recorded in whatever writing system the particular scribe happened to know. As I understand it, there is evidence of various languages being recorded in the phoenician script, (egyptian heiroglyphs, hieratic, and demotic), and cuneiform (very popular prior to phoenician letters). During this period of time, according to Biblical and historical accounts, there was a fair amount of interaction between Egypt and the Israeli kingdoms both north and south. It is possible that Lehi, for one reason or another, learned a simplified form of Egyptian writing, instead of Phoenician or Chaldean, because that’s the writing system he had the most proximity to. The idea that they, as good Jews, would be loyal to a particular language or writing system is laughable and not born out by history (see Yiddish and Ladino). If that were the case, then Hebrew would not have needed to be resurrected by Eleazar Ben-Yehudah. It was a dead language as far back as Jesus’ time and perhaps earlier. After the captivity most Jews spoke Aramaic. So, the premise that Lehi and his family, as good Jews spoke Hebrew but wrote in Egyptian is perfectly plausible.

The biggest issue I would have would be the total dissimilarity between any Ancient Near-Eastern writing system and the (Central) American writing systems. There were three, Aztec, Mayan, and Olmec and all have been or are in the process of being deciphered. None of them resemble Egyptian of any kind. They are typically made up of carvings of faces as ideo- or logograms with boxes placed around the faces to indicate syllabic usage. This is totally foreign to Egyptian Hierogliphic writing. There also doesn’t seem to be any cursive form to the American writing systems, even in the codices they left behind, whereas Egyptian cursive transformed the hieroglyphics to something barely resembling writing as much as scribble in the final form called Demotic (Coptic writing doesn’t count, it was based on Greek).

I can’t really see the possibility of the Nephite writing system being kept from the rest of the people. That makes little sense that Lehi would only teach Nephi and Sam and not Lemuel and Laman. As Nephi’s older brothers, it would make more sense that Lehi would teach them first in order for them to help him with record keeping, business, etc. While it is true that most of the people would be illiterate, it makes little sense to leave a record of that kind of importance which only a handful of people could read at best, and those dead or dying by the time the record was buried. We should just simply see more evidence of a Nephite writing system in the Americas somewhere, even if it isn’t exactly like the Anthon transcript (since this resembles a written cursive as opposed to some kind of a more refined engraving or inscription), it should resemble it in some way.

The Japanese-Chinese argument is a good one, and it answers some surface questions well. It’s the deeper questions of lack of more evidence of this writing system that is the most troubling. It’s also extremely troubling that no languages in the New World have any strong ties to Hebrew, Egyptian, or any Hamito-Semitic language. To really determine a direct descent we would need to see not only similar vocabulary in a few words here and there, but also a defined similarity in pronouns, numbers and counting systems, parts of speech, and sentence construction. For example, Spanish and Latin are demonstrably related. Hebrew and Akkadian are demostrably related. English, German, Russian, Greek, Latin, and Sanskrit are all demonstrably related. Even Greek and Hittite can be demonstrated as being related. It is really, really tough to prove such a link between, for example, Hebrew and Mayan or Olmec. Or Hebrew and Cherokee. We should see a lot more continuity between mother and daughter languages, and we just don’t see that.

In short, something truly bad and extraordinary would have had to have happened to totally wipe away all evidence of such a writing system and turn a civilization with writing and iron age technology into various tribes and bands of nomadic hunter gatherers (in some cases) with no evidence of written language whatsoever. Yes, the BOM does say many really bad things happened to them, but even with this… The Minoan civilization was completely leveled by a really big volcano which was felt as far away as Egypt and was probably the basis for the story of Atlantis. We still have examples of their writing system. We can’t read it, but we have examples of it. It’s called Linear A and it’s around 3500 years old. The Nephite writing system likely ceased to be used around 1400 years ago. We should have something.

I know wikipedia isn’t super reliable, but sometimes a good reference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_writing_systems

I have no particular argument to add but a couple of points to consider. In addition to space being a PREMIUM and therefore some sort of condensed language was necessary, I wonder what dynamic the act of ENGRAVING in metal plates might add to the choice of languages or alphabets? I mean, it’s not like typing it on my computer or even writing it on a page. What engraving tools were used and how might they alter the choice.

Also, there may be many choices of alphabets or languages that may have existed at 600 bc but exactly how many of those did Nephi himself personally know of?

Finally, though I find the information interesting I choose not to get too concerned about any arguments. I know the plates existed, that they were written (engraved) in a modified language form that the author referred to as “reformed egyptian”. They were translated by the gift and power of God by a prophet at His command and then He chose not to leave them for public discussion. God has His reasons and I’m not one to debate it with Him.

We could talk about proof and evidence all year but in the end it will all boild down to whether it did in fact happen. The best proof is in it. Read it and apply the promise in Moroni 10:4. The rest is just interesting.

So, given that as my perspective I found it to be an interesting bit of information. Thank you for bringing it up Ray.

This reminds me a lot of the book and movie “Breaking the Maya Code”. Interesting correlations.

Again, I’m NOT using this as a “proof” of any kind – other than that the word chosen fits the context perfectly, and I’m not aware of any other word that would have been known to Joseph that would have fit. When you have an argument that dismisses the use of a word out-of-hand, parsing is all that is available – and parsing this verse is enlightening.

Revealed or inspired or fiction, all I’m saying is that “adieu” is the perfect word for the context. Saying it is silly or proof that the BofM is not inspired just doesn’t work. (I’m not saying that’s your position – just that I hear it all the time, and it’s beyond a stretch.)

If we’re really going to go on about the difference in impacts of “God be with ye” vs “I commend you to God,” then really, now, I just don’t know what to say. the problem is that both terms (as well as adios for Spanish) all lost their religious meaning over time with the shortening of the terms…so if Goodbye wouldn’t have been suitable for translation, then why would adieu have been? You’re great at parsing, Ray, but you’re now parsing a meaning that wouldn’t have been familiar to readers of Joseph’s day and most certainly isn’t familiar to readers of this day. Unless Joseph wanted to be exotic in which case: touche.

“If we say that the efficiency of known Egyptian scripts doesn’t matter because these scripts were substantially modified, then there’s no point in making linguistic arguments at all.”

My point, exactly. Thanks.

Re 32, I get that motivation and agree that it’s the only one that makes sense. Unfortunately, if we are talking about hieroglyphics, the space-saving motivation is hard to argue. Hieroglyphs are beautiful but ungainly. Large, complex characters are used to encode single phonemes, like a detailed picture of a horned adder just to indicate the “f” sound. Also, the characters are so complex that they take a fair amount of space to draw. For economy Hebrew would have been a better choice.

If we say that the efficiency of known Egyptian scripts doesn’t matter because these scripts were substantially modified, then there’s no point in making linguistic arguments at all. We’re then left with the scenario of an new, otherwise unknown script being invented for the purpose of optimally encoding a single text. Again, I suppose this could happen, but it’s very, very odd.

By the way, I saw the Dead Sea Scrolls in a museum exhibit a few years ago. The size of the text is absolutely miniscule. It was very impressive.

“Adieu” has MUCH more root meaning than either “farewell” or “good-bye”.

dictionary.com is a good example of how the original meaning has been lost in the English translation. The first definitions there simply are “good-bye” and “farewell”. However, when you go further down the list, you find “I commend you to God,” and, critically, “originally said to the party left; farewell was to the party setting forth.”

This fits exactly the context of Jacob 7:27 – in which “farewell” already has been used. The verse reads:

“And I, Jacob, saw that I must soon go down to my grave; wherefore, I said unto my son Enos: Take these plates. And I told him the things which my brother Nephi had commanded me, and he promised obedience unto the commands. And I make an end of my writing upon these plates, which writing has been small; and to the reader I bid farewell, hoping that many of my brethren may read my words. Brethren, adieu.”

In this context, “adieu” can’t be a synonymn for “farewell” – especially when space was at a premium. That verse would be ludicrous if that was the case. If, however, Jacob literally was saying “farewell” to the reader who reads and departs but “Brethren, adieu” (“I commend you to God” ) – to those who were left as HE was getting ready to depart from them - (which is exactly how the overall passage reads) . . . “farewell and “adieu” are the PERFECT choices as they were used in their original meaning.

There simply isn’t an English word that fits better than “adieu” and is that concise – especially with the use of “farewell” in the same verse.

But with the BOM, you’ve got the official edition, and that’s the only one you can be “faithful” and be sure that it’s accurate to the original (just go with me here). The church couldn’t release a different edition (now with 30% less instances of “And it came to pass”…) with the assurance that it would be as true a translation. Because we don’t have the original source .

All I’m saying is I think it MIGHT be helpful if there were AUTHORITATIVE and EASY-TO-READ BoMs. Who’s with me?

sorry for the rant.

I agree that saving space would be the considerable point.

But then I have to also pay attention to what MoHoHawaii posed: It would be like swapping the Latin alphabet for Chinese hanzi when trying to write Spanish.

I might swap out that Latin alphabet for Chinese hanzi when writing Chinese (and I find frequently that writing Chinese takes less space than writing any latin-based language — you find that quickly when you’re texting or tweeting, have 160 character limits, and realize that one character means a lot more than one letter, and you start enjoying them very much), but I wouldn’t use Chinese hanzi for writing Spanish or English. Yet there you have manyogana, using hanzi for writing Japanese, not concepts but sounds, and seeming to defeat the “space saving” traits of the hanzi.

And regardless of the space considerations, linguistic trends *do* tend toward stable phonemic characters. So, Japanese does get a little lazy with the manyogana (the hanzi used to represent specific sounds), creating katakana and hiragana from them.

As for adieu…perhaps I haven’t paid attention to the discussion, but I think this reflects on Joseph’s selection of word for translation, not what was in the plates. Similarly, Joseph selected the kind of English (King James imitating) that he did — these things do not, on their own, suggest anything about the authenticity of the BoM. Perhaps he just wanted “adieu” instead of “goodbye” (which has the same root and most certainly was available)

There is only one reason that makes sense – to save space.

This highlights another oft-criticized linguistic part of the Book of Mormon – the use is the word “adieu”. However, when you consider the root meaning of that word (“God be with you as we part” – or something similar), it is the perfect choice of one word to express that sentiment in that instance at the end **of that particular passage** using one word rather than many – and saving space in the process. I don’t know of an English word that would have been familiar to Joseph that could have conveyed that message in such an abbreviated way – and if it matched to a glyph that conveyed the same meaning, it is a perfect choice. Since that is the only time such a modern, foreign word was chosen, it’s worth considering carefully why – and there is a perfectly logical reason, if one is willing to grant logic a chance.

Any variant of Egyptian script that would be relevant in the timeframe required by BoM chronology would have been based on hieroglyphs (or possibly its cursive forms, although these would only have been recently invented). Coptic can be ruled out entirely for purposes of the BoM discussion, since it appears only in the Christian era (2nd century AD). The unexplanable part is why the efficient and well-established Hebrew alphabet would have been discarded in favor of the tremendous comparative complexity and linguistic foreignness of hieroglyphs. It would be like swapping the Latin alphabet for Chinese hanzi when trying to write Spanish. Why would you go from a symbol set numbering a few dozen to one with thousands of complex characters? I’m not saying this is impossible, it’s just very, very odd.

I recommend a really great book that tells the story of Champollion, the French scholar who decyphered the Rosetta Stone. It’s Lesley and Roy Atkins’s The Keys of Egypt: The Race to Crack the Hieroglyph Code. The book tells a fascinating story, and the Egyptian language itself is remarkable in a number of ways.

Similarity Between Japanese and Hebrew

Joseph Eidelberg points out that there are many Japanese words which are very similar to Hebrew in both meaning and pronunciation.

A Japanese word “anata” which means you is also said “anta”, and in the dialect of Kyushu is said “atah”. In Hebrew this is also “atah” or “anta”. “Aruku” in Japanese meaning to walk is in Hebrew “halak”.

Japanese “hakaru” means to measure and Hebrew “haqar”means to investigate or measure. Japanese “horobu” means to perish and Hebrew “horeb” means to become ruined or perish. Japanese “teru” means to shine and Hebrew “teurah” means illumination.

Japanese “meguru” means to circle and “magaru” means to turn, while Hebrew “magal” means circle. Japanese “toru” meaning to take is “tol” in Hebrew. Japanese “kamau” means to mind or care and Hebrew “kamal” means to sympathize.

Japanese “damaru” which means to become silent is “damam” in Hebrew. Japanese “hashiru” means to run and Hebrew “hush” means to hurry. Japanese “nemuru” means to sleep and Hebrew “num” means to doze.

Japanese “ito” which means thread is “hut” in Hebrew. The stick with white papers of zigzag pattern put on its upper part which the Shinto priest waves is called “nusa” in Japanese, while a Hebrew word “nes” means flag. Japanese “ude” means arm and Hebrew “yad” means hand. Japanese “kata” which means shoulder is “qatheph” in Hebrew. Japanese “owari” which means end or finish is “aharith” in Hebrew.

Japanese “kyou” which means today is “qayom” in Hebrew. Japanese “tsurai” means painful and Hebrew “tzarah” means trouble or misfortune. Japanese “karui” which means light in weight is “qal” in Hebrew. Hebrew “qor” means coldness and reminds of a Japanese word “kooru” which means freeze or “koori” which means ice.

Japanese “samurau” means to serve or guard (for the noble) and Hebrew “shamar” means to guard (Genesis 2:15). In Japanese, from “samurau” came a word “samurai” which means Japanese ancient warrior or guard. Also in Hebrew, if we attach a Hebrew suffix “ai” meaning profession to “shamar”, it would be “shamarai” which sounds close to the Japanese guard “samurai”. [This is the same case as "banai" which is a Hebrew word for builder and is a combination of "banah" (to build) and "ai" (suffix meaning profession) . Modern Hebrew does not have the word "Shamurai" but it fully satisfies the grammar of Hebrew.]

Researchers point out many other similarities between Japanese and Hebrew. A researcher points out more than 500 similarities of words. Among them, there may be several examples of similarity only by chance, even in those I listed here, but can we think all of these are by chance? There could be, by mere chance between two languages, several words which resemble each other in pronunciation and meaning, but when there are many words similar between the two, we may have to think that there is etymologic relationship between the two. Japanese includes many words which seem to have Hebrew origin.

Cowboy in #6. It is my understanding that Native American languages bear little or no resemblance to either Hebrew or Egyptian. Sorenson seems to make a claim about some Indian tribes in the southwest US, but I don’t believe there is widespread acceptance of this.

Coptic, Demotic, and Hieratic, as Agnes says, are the Egyptian language using the Greek alphabet. I believe Coptic dates to the 11th to 16th century BC, so I think it could be a possibility for the BoM. I agree that Bill’s point that it is not found in the new world is a problem, though there are a small minority who believe the BoM could have taken place in areas outside of the Americas.

I have often wondered if Charles Anthon may have influenced Joseph. I have often wondered if the BoM could have been written in Aramaic, instead of Reformed Egyptian. Anthon didn’t know what he was looking at (and neither did Joseph), and I wonder if it could have been a different language altogether. I do think that Coptic, Demotic, or something else could be a candidate for reformed Egyptian.

MH, aka MA.

I admit that polygamy, like many ancient history lessons, is not incredibly interesting to me. So, I was probably taking a nap, or ran out of popcorn.

root beer — indeed superior

It may be worth noting that this process of adapting Chinese characters to the native language evolved organically over several hundred years. So, the first native writers (of the Kojiki, NohonShoki, and the Fudoki) simply wrote in the Chinese language (kanbun) since there was no system to conform written Chinese to spoken Japanese. Only gradually through the evolution of a markup system as a medium did the hybrid “reformed” system come into being where the characters fit into the spoken Japanese model so that there could really be a written Japanese.

The USSR forcing a wide myriad of languages (i.e. central Asian Turkic, etc.) into the Cyrillic alphabet is a modern example that comes to mind of adapting an alphabet to fit new languages.