“He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.”
(Matt. 10:37-38)

You don’t choose anyone or anything over God. That was the problem in Eden. They chose to stay together over God. They chose to have children over God. They chose to have the knowledge of good and evil over God. The Latter-Day Saints say that God wanted Adam and Eve to choose those things over Him. The Latter-Day Saints are wrong! The thing I don’t like most about that is that I’m one of them and I don’t like and don’t agree with what they are saying.

The whole Eden incident is about obedience to God, the Father. And that obedience was simply not accomplished.

No. I don’t believe you are evil and there is no way you are going to end up in perdition. And you are not weak or stupid which is what I think you meant by the word dim. Let me put it this way. Here is a piece of your dialogue:

“The process by which children are conceived (SEX), though considered holy within the bonds of marriage, is really not for those who are innocent, and like little children. Its for grown ups. It requires carnal emotions and desires. Its an activity for adults….adults who know good from evil, adults who physically long for physical contact. Waiting for a pair of hapless eunichs to figure out how to fit A into B is really not the best pathway toward procreation.”

Don’t come across this way. It’s like someone tying to shoot at a target and the bulls eye is directly behind him. You’ve missed the point in a strange way.

“And I certainly honor Adam for choosing Eve over obedience. I guess I am just a sucker for romance…..” There’s a romance novel I don’t need to read.

I assure you, I have no problem feeling “spiritually clean” in regards to “procreative activities”. I live the law of chastity. I was merely pointing out the carnal nature of sex:

car⋅nal  /ˈkɑrnl/
–adjective 1. pertaining to or characterized by the flesh or the body, its passions and appetites; sensual: carnal pleasures.
2. not spiritual; merely human; temporal; worldly: a man of secular, rather carnal, leanings.

I do not believe that “procreative activities” damage my spirituality. But, I also do not consider them to be faith building experiences. I confess, that while participating is said activities, I am not contemplating scripture, remembering tidbits from the last gospel doctrine lesson, or planning my food storage. Always the imperfect one, I allow myself to enjoy the pleasures (blessings) of the flesh. I can only hope that Adam and Eve were just as blessed.

FWIW, I happen to believe that Adam and Eve were real people. It’s comforting for me to think of them as real people that had to put up with all the same crap that I have to put up with. I joyfully look to them as being imperfect, just like me. Human, just like me. In need of a Saviour, just like me.

Regardless of what we believe to be the mind set of Adam and Eve, as well as the need for “the fall”, the fact remains that they did fall. I honor both Eve and Adam for their handling of this most difficult situation. I prefer to focus on what Eve achieved, not on the fact that she transgressed. And I certainly honor Adam for choosing Eve over obedience. I guess I am just a sucker for romance…..

Not only can you be perfect but the Lord has all ready prepared the that makes it possible. You need to realize that I go by the Books. If you have a problem with the Standard Works than we don’t have common ground. We may have different interpretations. That’s fine. What’s not so fine is the fact that you really didn’t have any interpretations (even though that’s what I called it in the first paragraph) because you didn’t use any scriptures in the first place. Allow me.

Now read Matthew 5:48 quoted above. How can you read a command like that and come away with idea it can’t be done? Maybe I should be asking what your concept of God is. I don’t know, maybe Buddha does that stuff but the Christian God does not. When the Christian God commands, He’s right there to help you accomplish it (Again, 1Nephi 3:7).

Some people will say that this commandment is not possible because we have all ready done wrong things so no one can be perfect. The main problem with this approach is the lack of honesty of those who use it. The commandment was given to people, all of whom had all ready fallen into sin so the commandment to be perfect does not concern itself with the past, it only concerns itself with the future. People use this approach in an attempt to exempt themselves from the commandment so they can nurture their weaknesses. It seems that some sins are just kind of nice to have around. We are not perfect because we choose not to be perfect. We are not perfect because we choose darkness over light. You see, pinkpatent, honesty is always the best policy.

When we consider Matt. 5:48, we need to recognize two major differences between Heavenly Father and mortal man. Heavenly Father never commits any act of sin. That’s the easy part — OK, it’s the easy part when you consider the second difference. Heavenly Father is exalted. He is celestially immortal. That’s the hard part. Jesus didn’t command us to ‘become’ like Heavenly Father, He commanded us to ‘be’ like Heavenly Father. He commanded mortal men to ‘be’ exalted Gods. God doesn’t always command according to our mortal capabilities but according to our potential to become. “I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.” (Psalms 82:6) Here He calls mortals, gods. Not that that is what they are but that’s what they can become. God will probably never command a bug to throw a mountain into the sea because that bug will probably never have that capability given to it in all eternity. But we have that potential so ‘imo’ (thanks Hawkgrrrl.) I can see Him commanding us to do that – - – not on a large scale, but here and there. That’s the principle that got Moses and the Israelites across the Red Sea.

Having said that it is now my displeasure to admit to you that you might be right in what you said in the first place – essentially that learning to follow all the commandments all the time is impossible in this life. I think Joseph Smith made a comment very much like that. If that’s what you say and if that is what he said then I think you are both wrong.
Pinkpatent, you get on that path that the Lord has all ready prepared for you in order to follow that commandment and apply yourself with all your heart and I think you will accomplish it before you die. Maybe well before you die.

“God knows the nature of His children. He KNEW that each of us would come to earth and sin.”

That’s not honest. You are only succoring your weaknesses. You are only trying to exempt yourself from the commandment to be perfect. Probably the biggest problem with mortals is their love affair with their sins. The command to be perfect does not deal with the past. It deals with the future. Heavenly Father did not command Jesus to be perfect. He all ready was. But by the will of the Father, Jesus did command us to be perfect. So do it! And stop complaining (At least your insistence that the command is impossible tells me that is what you are doing.).

“Do you REALLY think he wasn’t expecting the fall?”

Of course He knew the fall was going to happen. He knew that because He knew the mind of Satan. The fall was Lucifer’s plan. Heavenly Father simply made provisions for our escape.

“THERE HAD TO BE A FALL.” WHO SAID!!!?

“God needed a MAN and a WOMAN to start the human family. Could that happen in their “Garden of Eden” state? Maybe, but I doubt it.”

Definitely not. Therefore the Father’s plan had our probationary experience happening in a ‘Millennial state. ’As a consequence of ’ (remember?) Adam and Eve’s transgression, at least, part of Satan’s plan was allowed to proceed.

“The process by which children are conceived (SEX), though considered holy within the bonds of marriage, is really not for those who are innocent, and like little children. Its for grown ups. It requires carnal emotions and desires. Its an activity for adults….adults who know good from evil, adults who physically long for physical contact.”

If you have a problem with maintaining spiritual cleanliness in any of the procreative activities than I agree with you. You need to grow up. The vision of such a person is very dim and that person has allowed their weaknesses to become very powerful.

Whether or not the story of Adam and Eve is mythilogical or historical in nature, to me the message is clear: Adam and Eve were immortal,and in order for them to become mortal, including all that goes along with mortality, THERE HAD TO BE A FALL. The process by which children are conceived (SEX), though considered holy within the bonds of marriage, is really not for those who are innocent, and like little children. Its for grown ups. It requires carnal emotions and desires. Its an activity for adults….adults who know good from evil, adults who physically long for physical contact. Waiting for a pair of hapless eunichs to figure out how to fit A into B is really not the best pathway toward procreation. The fact of the matter is, ADAM AND EVE NEEDED TO GROW UP. God needed a MAN and a WOMAN to start the human family. Could that happen in their “Garden of Eden” state? Maybe, but I doubt it.

Ray. I appreciate your words. You described what I feel , you honestly feel. I guess mortality will never be a place where I will be able to comprehend taking our Standard Works and interpreting them to say that God needed, wanted, or in any way constructed a plan or any kind of situation requiring even a single act of disobedience from anyone at any time for any reason. To me it’s pure confusion.

You are in a lot of good company, though. Look at Lehi trying to explain this to young Jacob who seemed to be concerned about the idea of someone having to disobey God. I don’t think this figurative stuff had even crossed anyone‘s mind yet. “if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen” was for Lehi the real thing – a real Adam and Eve in a real situation. That’s why the long list of ‘important’ reasons came along for them to disobey. And remember, Lehi wasn’t saying anything that isn’t being said today (outside this figurative stuff). He didn’t know what else to do with it. And when you finally consider what he said in verse 22 How did Jacob deal with it? As far as the record goes, He just never talked about it again. So we’re not sure. And yet, 2Nephi 2:22 is one of the most misinterpreted scriptures in the Standard Works. Even Lehi didn’t comprehend what he had said and he’s the one who said it.

How did this all get started? – with what Eve said as reported in Moses 5:11. I call this Eve’s verse. “Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.”.

WHAT?? — ’Were it not for our transgression we never should have had…the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.’??

How do you get redemption then – by transgression or obedience? This verse is one of the most twisted pieces of literature in existence. And the most perplexing thing is that the Lord’s people in all ages have been lapping it up like crazy.

People!? Can we, at least, think this out a just a little bit? No, Adam! No, Eve! ‘Were it not for your taking the fruit, which initiated, by the power of God, a transition to a probationary state, you would never have gotten all those good things. Unfortunately, you took the fruit when you weren’t supposed to so there was a subsequent fall to a telestial state instead of a unilateral transition to a millennial or ’Eden-like’ state which was the original plan of the Father (a condition only some of us will now get). He had all ready made provisions for a fall but it was not His plan. Why would He ever plan for a fall? – or an act of transgression? But, the Lord’s people just gobble it up.

Listen, instead, to what Adam said in the previous verse. Moses 5:10 – what I call Adam’s verse – “And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my deyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.“ Tune into the ‘because of my transgression’ part. In the English language there are two meanings for the word ’because’ – ’only through’ and ’as a result of ’. Put this scripture right beside what Nephi said in 1Nephi 3:7 ’…the Lord giveth no bcommandments unto the children of men, save he shall cprepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.’ and you will get the Lord’s interpretation for the word ’because’ in Moses 5:10 – ‘as a result of ‘ my transgression – NOT ‘only through’.

Remember, Adams verse is prefaced with ‘And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled’. What Adam said was under the influence of the Spirit. On the other hand Eve’s verse is prefaced with ’And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying’. Eve was only glad about what Adam had said and went on to say what she said which was all wrong. She took the ’only through’ route.

Ray. Hawkgrrl. Enjoy your figurative morality play while it lasts. The day will come that it will be nothing but dust in a bygone wind. Reality will prevail.

By the way. Would somebody tell me what imo, otoh, and iow mean?

Other interesting tidbits:
- Satan talks to Adam first. Is he being sexist? Does Adam look like a patsy? When confronted by God he whines and rants.
- Adam’s response is just talking past Satan. He clarifies Satan’s authority. (Will he only obey someone above him in hierarchy?) When he listens to Eve’s advice and eats the fruit, it’s because he wants to both obey and to stay with her. When confronted by God, he explains his rationale and then accepts responsibility.
- Eve is willing to listen to alternate viewpoints, making herself subject to persuasion by Satan who intends to thwart God’s plan. (another NOM connection?) When she realizes Satan was just using her, she still stands by her decision and the journey she has undertaken. She believes in taking initiative rather than passive obedience. When confronted by God, she explains her rationale (but in terms of having been tricked) and then accepts responsibility.
- God is an enigmatic absentee parent. When he returns, he asks for an explanation, and he takes action based on an assessment of the motives of the players. He is the opening and closing curtain to the little morality play.

Eve’s story also has many parallels to Persephone from Greek mythology.

However, I also believe the entire narrative is figurative and allegorical, as used to be stated plainly in the endowment. I believe it is a dramatazation of the pre-mortal decision that we all had to make. For me, personally, that view adds all kinds of personal weight to the story, especially to the idea that I chose my own fall – with all its struggles and pain and temptation.

Further, I believe that the foundation of many things in history is inevitability. Iow, set a certain situation in motion and watch what inevitably happens. In a state of innocence and naivete, tempted by a cunning advesary, the fall was inevitable – so God was not enraged or even angry at Adam and Eve. He simply laid out the consequences of their actions. His response to Lucifer, however, was MUCH different. He acted in full knowledge of his own motivations – to oppose and thwart God. Therefore, God reacted forcefully in the moment and promised to crush him in the future.

I love the narrative as a morality play, even as I believe in a first “human couple” – created when God “reached down” and inserted immortal spirits into mortal bodies. Taking it literally just doesn’t do it for me – but I have absolutely no problem with others doing so if it works for them.

Young earth theory, otoh, is bunk, imo.

Let’s go through verse 22 one part at a time. “And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen,”That’s easy – he fell because he transgressed. It happens every time. “but he would have remained in the Garden of Eden.” Not difficult – his transgression caused his expulsion from the Garden so if he hadn’t transgressed he would have stayed there. “And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.”

It’s easy to get tripped on this part. The Transgression Theory would say this 2nd sentence in verse 22 refers to the first phrase of the first sentence of 22. To see this more clearly, divide verse 22 into three parts:

Verse 22
And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen,
but he would have remained in the garden of Eden.
And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

Transgression Theory
It takes an act of transgression to move the Edenical exsistence into a probationary state of exsistence. And since it had to be by an act of transgression, that probationary period would have to be in a fallen (or tellestial) state. In other words part 3 of verse 22 refers to part 1. The transgression, mentioned in part 1, was needed to bring about the conditions mentioned in part 3.

Not so! Let’s introduce another term – the Obedience Theory.

Obedience Theory
Part 3 refers to part 2. When that connection is made what is established is that if they are to stay in the Garden, or in an Edenical extistence, that all things would, forever, remain as they were created. It would have remained forever because that is the way God created it. It was not a fruit that terminated their lives. It was not an act of transgression that terminated their lives. It was the power of God that terminated their lives. In the case of Adam and Eve, disobedience invoked that power but that most certainly was not the only reason God would ever have to terminate their existence in Eden.

What the Transgression Theory is saying, then, is that we have condition that only an act of transgression can change. I can’t go along with that. It’s almost implying that if the only thing that can change a condition the Lord has pronounced “good” is an act of transgression, than the act of transgression is more powerful than God. No – God can change it too – without an act of transgression. All He needs is a good reason and that reason is easy to see. The Plan of the Father was to subject us to a test of obedience by faith-not sight. Those that failed would suffer eternal damnation to one degree or another and those that passed would be exalted. This test would not be possible without a knowledge of good and evil. And here is the secret to understanding what happened in the Garden of Eden if you will receive it.

God did not want Adam and Eve to eat the fruit
by Satan’s counsel. He, also, did not want
them to eat of the fruit when they thought it
best. He wanted them to eat the fruit when He
Deemed them ready to eat of it and when that
time came the fruit be given to them by someone
Authorize to give it-not by a devil.

By the Father’s plan He (Heavenly Father) would have given them the fruit. How is it that everyone thinks He would have chosen an animal to administer that ordinance under the direction of a devil? Only a myth maker would think that.

To help understand Heavenly Father’s plan, define what is meant by the Transgression of Adam and Eve and then substitute that definition in for the word “transgressed” in verse 22. Here it is, again the way it is written:

(22) And now, behold, IF ADAM HAD NOT
TRANSGRESSED HE WOULD NOT HAVE
FALLEN, but he would have remained
in the Garden of Eden. And all
things which were created must have
remained in the same state in which
they were after they were created;
and they must have remained
forever, and had no end.

The transgression was their act of eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil when God told them not to eat it. So here is verse 22 with that definition substituted in place of “transgressed” –

(22) And now, behold, IF ADAM HAD NOT
eaten the fruit of the knowledge of
good and evil when God told him not to
Eat it HE WOULD NOT HAVE FALLEN, but
He Would have remained in the Garden
Of Eden. And all things which were
created must have remained in the same
state in which they were after they
were created; and they must have
Remained forever, and had no end.

There’s nothing difficult about that at all. If they don’t eat the fruit when God tells them not to eat it then of course they won’t fall. It doesn’t even imply that a transgression is necessary. It merely states a fact – if you remain in the Garden of Eden than you will live forever. But because they ate the fruit when they were commanded not to eat it, they fell. The verse goes on to say that you don’t get out of an Edenical existence without eating the fruit.

A good point is made in The Power of Myth. The authors say you should study the myths of other religions because then we can see the allegorical truth. When we study our own myths we have a tendency to take them too literally as if they were actual events, thus missing the point of the stories.

It’s interesting that Rich says that Adam and Eve would’ve had the chance to partake of the fruit at a later time appointed by God and then says not to misinterpret 2 Ne 2. I’ve heard lots of people in the church argue the same thing, but I always thought 2 Ne 2 completely debunked that.

To wit:

“22. And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.
“23. And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.”

I honestly see no way to misinterpret that. I don’t see any caveats on the “they would have had no children” or “they must have remained in the same state in which they were” statements. It sounds absolute. I know what 1 Ne 3:7 says, but from this reading I don’t see how multiplying and replenishing could have occurred unless they partook of the fruit.

Also, while Joseph Smith stated unequivocally in the second Article of Faith that we don’t believe in original sin, AFAIK he never really expounded much on that statement. I’d love to read any official statements he made that clarify his position, because I don’t know of any. It seems Elder Oaks was a well-intended but clumsy attempt to clarify what Joseph said.

Somebody categorize me – TBM or NOM — or whatever else.

In the acquisition for truth there exists, I believe, an assumption that is basic to gaining an understanding of that particular knowledge which influences our eternal welfare – namely, the truth. That assumption I have named just that – the basic assumption. It says:

Regardless of the location of an event in space and time, it cannot be of
such a nature that, in it’s taking place, it would be better not to follow the
word of God concerning that event.

I believe the basic assumption is true. If we deal with events that have choices to make that are choices between right and wrong, or in other words, choices between following the will of God or doing something else and we don’t believe the basic assumption than confusion will result and gray areas will abound. Where there are choices to make between right and wrong, there is only black and white. The problem lies not in discerning black from white. The problem lies in people who don’t have God’s vision which He would give them if they would ask for it. Instead, it seams most people choose to indulge their weaknesses.

No, Adam and Eve should not have eaten the fruit. God, the Father, had personally and plainly, told them not to eat it. Adam’s ‘knee jerking’ reaction was perfectly correct. Who should care if he understands why? Now this notion that they needed to eat it to fulfill a larger plan is pure poppy cock and should be sold for poor quality silage. That notion is simply not true – I don’t care who is saying otherwise.

By the way, how am I being categorized so far?

Do you want to here some truth? I thought you would. So here it is.

If Adam and Eve had not taken the fruit and gone on with their lives in
Eden, the time would have come that the Father would have deemed them
ready for their mortal probation and HE (not a devil) would have given
them the fruit. Then their eating the fruit would have been in perfect
obedience to God and in perfect accordance with His plan.

The Father’s plan was commence a plan of salvation with an act of OBEDIENCE not disobedience. Don’t misinterpret 2Nephi 2.

Enough said.