http://mormontimes.com/mormon_voices/orson_scott_card/?id=9578

(well, no i didn’t cry, and he’s written more ‘right’ stuff in years, but go with the hyperbole)

You are right about that. I have to get off my tookus and schlep around the room to get the schmata to clean my computer screen. It only gets better! Keine Hore!

A while back there was a sidebar link titled something like “could these guys be any more mormon?” that alluded to the family links only mormons have.

Here’s my definition: You’re a “cultural Mormon” if two of the following three criteria apply:
a) You have a trampoline
b) You have a minivan
c) You have cousins in Utah.
Yeah, I’m a (more than) cultural mormon!

That’s actually a good point, Nick (especially for the position John is in). We say “cultural Mormon,” and then pin it down on the majority denomination (CoJCoL-dS)…would that mean, for example, that Community of Christ members do not count as Cultural Mormons (or do they only count if they grew up for a critical period in the CoJCoL-dS even if they moved out)? Or does that mean that people who don’t practice the correlated modern LDS deal do not count as cultural Mormons? Or is cultural Mormonism uniquely based off of that correlated modern LDS church, and the way to escape it IS to abandon (or never experience in the first place) the correlation?

Nick-

I don’t feel that someone criticizing the church is necessarily the same as someone who is intentionally trying to destroy another person’s faith. People can criticize aspects of the church and not be seeking to destroy another person’s faith. I have had personal experience with a person actively seeking to destroy a person’s faith in the LDS church and it is NOT the same as someone saying “I don’t agree with Prop 8, etc.”

Ray, there are many who consider themselves “Mormons,” in that their faith derives from the teachings of Joseph Smith. Many of those individuals are “opposed to the LDS church.” Are they really to be considered “anti-Mormons?”

Jen, in my experience, there are a number of active LDS who view any criticism of their church, whatsoever, as “intentionally seeking to destroy another person’s faith.” Using that as the definition of an “anti” seems incredibly subjective and over-broad.

I would agree, except that I’d differentiate here between “Mormonism” and “LDS-ism.” The demon known as Correlation originated long after Joseph Smith established Mormonism, and it (mercifully) pertains to only one “brand” thereof.

I would not be surprised if there are some Jews that think this way. The Jewish population, as a whole is shrinking due to intermarriage, secularization and low birth rate. They have only themselves to blame if they think that folks are susceptible to conversion.

I fully understand the cultural Mormon idea. I am still culturally Jewish in many, many ways. Oy Vey!

While I’m guilty of the above, I like to think that Mormon culture encapsulates more than just language, but I’m hesitant to include the Word of Wisdom as a uniquely Mormon cultural aspect. Although there aren’t many religions that make temperance a central part of their theology, there are some smaller ones that do. And there are many religions that discourage drunkenness, although they don’t have as strong an enforcement mechanism as denying temple recommends.

I think a bigger part of our culture than many realize are the related practices of genealogy work and honoring our pioneer ancestors on the 24th of July. I’ve worked for a lot of out-of-state companies who don’t give their employees time off for the 24th and are confused when a bunch of people ask for it off. I’ve also been able to witness many pioneer reenactments and pioneer celebrations in wards outside of Utah. While some pioneer day celebrations are indistinguishable from other ward parties, the fact that many of the kids and adults dress up like pioneers and tell stories about their ancestors crossing the plains is a very important part of our heritage.

I think another key part of our culture is how we plan get-togethers. We compensate for the lack of alcohol by assigning people to bring refreshments. It’s practically unheard of to have ward gatherings without fattening snacks of some kind. There’s a reason we have lower rates of heart disease in Utah, but higher rates of diabetes.

Culturally I will always be a Mormon. I’m Ok with that. Like a poster above I regularly find myself defending the church to people who need to understand the LDS point of view or have a blaring misunderstanding of church doctrine. It seems, however that this understanding is not returned by members of the church to my family. My nine year old was told by his “friends” that satan has control of my family. I hear the same rhetoric from my Southern Baptist cousins. Everybody seems all to eagar to vote us into hell.

That would be my response as well. A childhood friend of mine came to my home unannounced one day. I had not seen him in 20 years. He had been saved and came to my home when he had heard I was Mormon. He was decidedly anti-Mormon. He was there however to save me as well. He disliked Mormonism because it was (in his mind) very wrong. His Christianity was very right. Same thing the missionaries do. Semantics as to who is anti-whatever.

the problem is that anti-Mormons do not call themselves anti-Mormon. They may, at worst, call themselves “countercult ministries,” but anti-Mormon is a name that Mormons have given to these people. If you do a quick search for anti-Mormon, you will find that the vast majority of results are from Mormon groups who are giving the adjective as descriptor to other groups. There is a website antimormon.com which indeed seems to be an anti- group that gives themselves the title, but this is only one group of many.

The “anti-Mormon” section of libraries distinctly highlights this point. It’s not like anti-Mormon writers group together saying, “heh heh, let’s make our own section of the library.” They speak in a way they think is candid without saying they are anti- and then the library/bookstore determines after the fact that they are anti-Mormon or whatever.

For example, the Tanners, a veritable anti-Mormon couple, run the “Utah Lighthouse Ministry.” There’s nothing about “anti-Mormonism” in that title, but anyone who’s familiar with their work and tactics would say they are hostile. See also: Walter Martin and “Christian Research Institute.”

Many of these groups or individuals claim to be innocent enough — just trying to show the “differences” between “Christianity” and “Mormonism” (which they feel should show that Mormonism is somehow not Christian or not Christian enough). Similarly, Mormons try at the same time to just show the “differences” between Christianity and Mormonism, showing how the restored Gospel is more correct than the apostasy of other churches. It’s all wordplay.

#37- I don’t agree with what you have said, but I am out of time to respond right now. I guess we will have to agree to disagree as well.

“Many anti-Mormons are members of other religions trying to “add to the foundation” that Mormons have of their belief in Christ. Go into any Christian bookstore and you will find the anti-Mormon section.”

If they are trying to add to the foundation of the Mormons belief in Christ then why do they call themselves anti-Mormons? We do not call ourselves anti-Catholics, or anti-Protestants, etc. The church we belong to is clearly named The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. If you write a book and it is in an anti-Mormon section then you really aren’t a part of another religion, you are trying to tear apart the Mormon religion and that is your focus. That is not adding to any foundation IMO.

We will have to agree to disagree on this one.

Of course, I guess Seattle is somewhat different than AZ.

I do agree though that there is a lot of stigma to stay in for parents’ sake. Additionally, what some people I know feel is that there is a lot more credibility to speak “about the church” when you’re in than when you’re out…so if someone wanted (even hypothetically) to try to create a grassroots movement to change the church, it would be more effective if they were on the rosters (even if they didn’t attend regularly) than if they were not.

These are all extra-special cases though, and I don’t think they match the experiences of most.

Really, I would think that people act in paths of least resistance. Excommunication, in particular, has a particularly negative bite to it, so with someone so steeped in the culture (even if they are inactive), I can understand how they would react to a suggestion to essentially be excommunicated (of course, things have changed so that resignation doesn’t carry the same “social weight” or connotation as excommunication). It isn’t necessarily that these people still believe or that they are acting irrationally since they appear to be so angry at the church, but once again, to resign would represent an annihilation of their past and annihilation of themselves.

To be honest it would break her parents hearts. She saw what another siblings church departure had done to them and doesn’t want to put them through that again. They found she(the sister) had left through the list of your kids they give you at Tithing settlement.

Garments? Well I wear underpants and an undershirt that look like garments when I’m about town. For a stretch my wife and I went without garments but the visible reaction of shock that always accompanied interaction with many friends and devout members just made things awkward. So rather than move, I just put these on. They are quite comfortable and I’m used to them anyway.

It’s a bit like if I was in an islamic country and just decided we would shed the traditional Beard or Burka and Hijab. The reaction we would get would be much the same as we do here.

We even call them that. “Honey, throw me a burka top, will you?”

Many anti-Mormons are members of other religions trying to “add to the foundation” that Mormons have of their belief in Christ. Go into any Christian bookstore and you will find the anti-Mormon section.

Using the idea that Mormons are simply trying to add on to the truth of others, the only distinction I see is what side of the fence you are on and what you feel you know. Every Mormon missionary’s goal is to change the faith of those of other religions or stated another way “destroy their faith in their religion”. Mormons may couch it in other terms, but that seems the reality to me.

I’m wondering how long ago you served as a missionary? Thirty years ago when I served, I ran into much of what you describe with inactive members and their beliefs. Interestingly enough, some of our best contacts and successes came from inactive members turning on to some of their friends.

The 1970’s and 80’s were kind of a golden time for the church. Most of us back then thought that a spiritual witness was important, but we also thought that the Book of Mormon had been proven true beyond any reasonable doubt. We told people back in my mission that archeologists were using the BoM to uncover literally tons of evidence proving that the Nephi’s and Lamanites had lived and that Christ had spent time in America. (Ferguson’s book was especially helpful.) Most people in the church believed it was true, they just waivered in their amount of commitment.

I would not say the same applies today. Thanks to the advent of the internet, proof of the historicity of the BoM people is only seen by true believing members. I don’t know if any evidence that is generally accepted by both non- LDS scientist and LDS ones that even hints at the book being historical. (I don’t want to start an argument over this point. I’m sure to believing member’s things like Nahom and Egyptian words seem like proof.) There are now many people in the church that have doubts about the authenticity of the Book of Abraham and wonder if the BoM may actually be just inspired fiction. Gone is the bravado of twenty years ago when we were sure that any day undeniable proof would spill from the ground and Christ would be on his way to earth. Members are now more worried about what scientist will learn next and more and more are turning to apologetic sources for answers.

I don’t see the same attitudes at all among many of my inactive friends. I realize that my experience isn’t indicative of the whole, but there seems to be a new group of inactive members who realize that activity in the church probably won’t have a big impact on their eternal reward. They feel that God will judge much more on how we treat each other and our integrity instead of which church you decide to walk into. Even among active members, there are now many who doubt that the early church was very favorable to God. They disapprove of polygamy, Government controlled by religion, isolationism and a host of other early church norms. Of course there are still the group of believing inactive members, but in this day and age, the membership is also becoming much more educated then they were years ago…

As a missionary in Seattle I saw some interesting things. During slow times we would visit people who never came to church and invite them to come back. Most people would say “we’ll try to make it…” I always felt this meant they still believe on some level but the effort of being a full time Mormon can be exhausting so they are on some kind of sabbatical from religion and when they have grown tired of fishing or something really bad happens in their life we will see them again.

Occasionally we would run into somebody who would curse us up and down and declare how much they hated the church and didn’t want to have anything to do with it. I would always invited them to have their names removed from the church records and I would try to hand them an envelope with the bishops name and address already filled out so they could write the letter. I must have done that 50+ times and nobody ever took the letter. In fact most of them would respond with “I am not getting myself excommunicated!” (or something similar)

I also ran into a number of people who hadn’t been to church in 20 years but they would still wear their garments.

One more story – I used to drive an old VW and when I would see other VW drivers on the road we would smile and wave. We had this unique subculture bond that drew us together. Now I drive a Mazda but I still notice all VW’s Love them and wish I had one again so I could wave at the other VW guys.

I don’t have any answers for the question I am not that smart but I did think it was fascinating the bond that exists for whatever reason. I think that cultural uniqueness combine with the emotion that you experience with religion has a very powerful impact on people.