Comments on: POLL: Prophetic Infallibility, Obeying the Prophet, and Being Blessed for Obeying the Prophet http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/08/poll-prophetic-infallibility-obeying-the-prophet-and-being-blessed-for-obeying-the-prophet/ A weekly podcast exploring Mormon culture and current events. Thu, 24 May 2012 04:10:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Jed ransom http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/08/poll-prophetic-infallibility-obeying-the-prophet-and-being-blessed-for-obeying-the-prophet/#comment-158272 Jed ransom Mon, 04 Jul 2011 23:46:00 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6169#comment-158272 when i was a morman my bishop and stake president called me in and told me that i had bin called to live polygamy for the church.it was to be done under cover.my wife also was called in and told about it.she believed everything they told her..so i am know living polygamy,i have 4 wives but i left the lds church and went to the kingston clan..i love it when i was a morman my bishop and stake president called me in and told me that i had bin called to live polygamy for the church.it was to be done under cover.my wife also was called in and told about it.she believed everything they told her..so i am know living polygamy,i have 4 wives but i left the lds church and went to the kingston clan..i love it

]]> By: Billy monsen http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/08/poll-prophetic-infallibility-obeying-the-prophet-and-being-blessed-for-obeying-the-prophet/#comment-158271 Billy monsen Mon, 04 Jul 2011 23:37:00 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6169#comment-158271 thomas s monsen aint never talked to god,he talks to saten.hes satens son.he has three wives living in his apartment.to of them are 17teen and 15 teen and he takes viagra to get a hard on thomas s monsen aint never talked to god,he talks to saten.hes satens son.he has three wives living in his apartment.to of them are 17teen and 15 teen and he takes viagra to get a hard on

]]> By: Kyle roahdes http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/08/poll-prophetic-infallibility-obeying-the-prophet-and-being-blessed-for-obeying-the-prophet/#comment-158270 Kyle roahdes Mon, 04 Jul 2011 23:29:00 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6169#comment-158270 boy you are so right there richard.the lds church is the biggest fraud ever pulled on the wourld..there is no proof of any thing in the book of morman no towns buildings bones nothing....yes kill that so called prophet hang all of them by the neck till dead then put them on the temple steps boy you are so right there richard.the lds church is the biggest fraud ever pulled on the wourld..there is no proof of any thing in the book of morman no towns buildings bones nothing….yes kill that so called prophet hang all of them by the neck till dead then put them on the temple steps

]]> By: richard harris http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/08/poll-prophetic-infallibility-obeying-the-prophet-and-being-blessed-for-obeying-the-prophet/#comment-158269 richard harris Mon, 04 Jul 2011 23:20:00 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6169#comment-158269 the lds church is a ponzi scheme its a fraud perppatuated on its members that were lyed to to get them in and then riped off the rest of the way.the tell you how to live your life...kill the profit with a bullet threw his head..amen the lds church is a ponzi scheme its a fraud perppatuated on its members that were lyed to to get them in and then riped off the rest of the way.the tell you how to live your life…kill the profit with a bullet threw his head..amen

]]> By: Cowboy http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/08/poll-prophetic-infallibility-obeying-the-prophet-and-being-blessed-for-obeying-the-prophet/#comment-90054 Cowboy Sat, 11 Jul 2009 02:40:09 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6169#comment-90054 #119- Nice! #119-

Nice!

]]> By: James http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/08/poll-prophetic-infallibility-obeying-the-prophet-and-being-blessed-for-obeying-the-prophet/#comment-90013 James Fri, 10 Jul 2009 22:45:26 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6169#comment-90013 58 In reading this article, I was admiring the faith of this member of the church. I admired her faith in her wanting to sacrifice. The sacrifices she would let her children make (no utilities, live in tent) were seemingly absurd and she probably wouldn’t do that if it came to that. The church, however, is endorsing this thinking by printing the article. I appreciated your thought about it apparently being okay to pay God, while ignoring your neighbor. The article never finished what happened Did something amazing happen and she had a windfall? Did the church pay her utility bills? Did the utility companies take pity on her? I wonder when members read these articles try and then don't get blessed what their thinking is? Is it God Trialling their faith? Could this be why Utah has so many bankruptcies the trust God will intervene and it doesn't happen? 58 In reading this article, I was admiring the faith of this member of the church. I admired her faith in her wanting to sacrifice. The sacrifices she would let her children make (no utilities, live in tent) were seemingly absurd and she probably wouldn’t do that if it came to that. The church, however, is endorsing this thinking by printing the article. I appreciated your thought about it apparently being okay to pay God, while ignoring your neighbor.

The article never finished what happened

Did something amazing happen and she had a windfall?
Did the church pay her utility bills?
Did the utility companies take pity on her?

I wonder when members read these articles try and then don’t get blessed what their thinking is?

Is it God Trialling their faith? Could this be why Utah has so many bankruptcies the trust God will intervene and it doesn’t happen?

]]> By: Jeff Spector http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/08/poll-prophetic-infallibility-obeying-the-prophet-and-being-blessed-for-obeying-the-prophet/#comment-89986 Jeff Spector Fri, 10 Jul 2009 20:14:43 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6169#comment-89986 "Your the better the man, Jeff, way to go.' Yeah, I was thinking the same thing.... “Your the better the man, Jeff, way to go.’

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing….

]]> By: Cowboy http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/08/poll-prophetic-infallibility-obeying-the-prophet-and-being-blessed-for-obeying-the-prophet/#comment-89937 Cowboy Fri, 10 Jul 2009 17:23:57 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6169#comment-89937 It just means that the insurance (tithing/consecration) policy has a cash value. It just means that the insurance (tithing/consecration) policy has a cash value.

]]> By: Dexter http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/08/poll-prophetic-infallibility-obeying-the-prophet-and-being-blessed-for-obeying-the-prophet/#comment-89925 Dexter Fri, 10 Jul 2009 15:51:06 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6169#comment-89925 Presuming he steals the interest is not cool. If he goes to the efforts of setting up a tithing fund or account he probably gives the interest and the principal. There is nothing wrong with this. My bishop does it that way. Sheeesh, people. Presuming he steals the interest is not cool. If he goes to the efforts of setting up a tithing fund or account he probably gives the interest and the principal. There is nothing wrong with this. My bishop does it that way. Sheeesh, people.

]]> By: James http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/08/poll-prophetic-infallibility-obeying-the-prophet-and-being-blessed-for-obeying-the-prophet/#comment-89923 James Fri, 10 Jul 2009 15:34:07 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6169#comment-89923 Mr Deity Knowledge is bad don't think follow your leaders http://mrdeity.com/s3ep3.html Mr Deity

Knowledge is bad don’t think follow your leaders

http://mrdeity.com/s3ep3.html

]]> By: Cowboy http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/08/poll-prophetic-infallibility-obeying-the-prophet-and-being-blessed-for-obeying-the-prophet/#comment-89911 Cowboy Fri, 10 Jul 2009 14:39:41 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6169#comment-89911 Your the better the man, Jeff, way to go. Your the better the man, Jeff, way to go.

]]> By: Jeff Spector http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/08/poll-prophetic-infallibility-obeying-the-prophet-and-being-blessed-for-obeying-the-prophet/#comment-89903 Jeff Spector Fri, 10 Jul 2009 13:49:51 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6169#comment-89903 I guess I try not to read too much into those Ensign stories of simple faith or try to twist it in such a way to be critical of the Church. When folks are apt to do that on a regular basis, I can't defend against that tactic. I guess I try not to read too much into those Ensign stories of simple faith or try to twist it in such a way to be critical of the Church. When folks are apt to do that on a regular basis, I can’t defend against that tactic.

]]> By: hawkgrrrl http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/08/poll-prophetic-infallibility-obeying-the-prophet-and-being-blessed-for-obeying-the-prophet/#comment-89843 hawkgrrrl Fri, 10 Jul 2009 05:46:17 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6169#comment-89843 brjones - of course, there are those who pay their tithing using a cashback credit card deal. Do they also pay 10% of their rewards/cashback points? Hmmm. But, remember tithing is 10% of your increase annually, and there are many ways to define that. brjones – of course, there are those who pay their tithing using a cashback credit card deal. Do they also pay 10% of their rewards/cashback points? Hmmm. But, remember tithing is 10% of your increase annually, and there are many ways to define that.

]]> By: Cowboy http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/08/poll-prophetic-infallibility-obeying-the-prophet-and-being-blessed-for-obeying-the-prophet/#comment-89836 Cowboy Fri, 10 Jul 2009 05:04:14 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6169#comment-89836 I think he see's himself more as a broker, so at year end the Lord get's the principal plus interest, less any loads, commissions, and overrides. Hawkgrrrl: Agreed. I think he see’s himself more as a broker, so at year end the Lord get’s the principal plus interest, less any loads, commissions, and overrides.

Hawkgrrrl:

Agreed.

]]> By: brjones http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/08/poll-prophetic-infallibility-obeying-the-prophet-and-being-blessed-for-obeying-the-prophet/#comment-89818 brjones Fri, 10 Jul 2009 03:49:01 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6169#comment-89818 #110 - That's interesting, Hawkgrrrl. I don't suppose he gives the earnings to the church along with the principal, does he? I wonder how one justifies that. He's either stealing the lord's interest, or at the very least he should be paying 10% of the profit, on top of the original ten percent. I'm worried for his soul. #110 – That’s interesting, Hawkgrrrl. I don’t suppose he gives the earnings to the church along with the principal, does he? I wonder how one justifies that. He’s either stealing the lord’s interest, or at the very least he should be paying 10% of the profit, on top of the original ten percent. I’m worried for his soul.

]]> By: Hawkgrrrl http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/08/poll-prophetic-infallibility-obeying-the-prophet-and-being-blessed-for-obeying-the-prophet/#comment-89809 Hawkgrrrl Fri, 10 Jul 2009 03:04:01 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6169#comment-89809 Since the tithing horse lives on, I will add that the woman also had the option to pay her tithing at year end if her circumstances were likely to change. It's not "due" monthly like a utility bill. You settle up at year end. A good friend of mine takes his and invests it, then pays it at year end. Personally, I called that check kiting against the Lord, but that was mostly because I like to bust his chops. Since the tithing horse lives on, I will add that the woman also had the option to pay her tithing at year end if her circumstances were likely to change. It’s not “due” monthly like a utility bill. You settle up at year end. A good friend of mine takes his and invests it, then pays it at year end. Personally, I called that check kiting against the Lord, but that was mostly because I like to bust his chops.

]]> By: Cowboy http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/08/poll-prophetic-infallibility-obeying-the-prophet-and-being-blessed-for-obeying-the-prophet/#comment-89804 Cowboy Fri, 10 Jul 2009 02:29:28 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6169#comment-89804 Bishop Everyman: The woman in the story had a choice, pay bills or pay tithing. This has nothing to do with how responsible this person has been. Remember, regardless of your theology, tithing in the real world is discretionary and charitable. It is not a bill, and cannot be owed. Utilities are assessed following the consumption of services. Credit debt also is money owed, from money spent and generally Bishops will not pay towards credit cards, for example (I am personally aware of exceptions). What a person does with their discretionary income is up to them, but in the scheme of things your debtors have claim first and should be given precedence over charity. I agree that the individual should be responsible for their finances, particularly when their circumstances arise from frivolous spending, part of being responsible is understanding the hierarchy of liabilities. Again I think the Old Testament examples are relevant. Perhaps this womans story would sound better if she decided offer a nominal tithe until her standing merits a full 10%. Bishop Everyman:

The woman in the story had a choice, pay bills or pay tithing. This has nothing to do with how responsible this person has been. Remember, regardless of your theology, tithing in the real world is discretionary and charitable. It is not a bill, and cannot be owed. Utilities are assessed following the consumption of services. Credit debt also is money owed, from money spent and generally Bishops will not pay towards credit cards, for example (I am personally aware of exceptions). What a person does with their discretionary income is up to them, but in the scheme of things your debtors have claim first and should be given precedence over charity. I agree that the individual should be responsible for their finances, particularly when their circumstances arise from frivolous spending, part of being responsible is understanding the hierarchy of liabilities. Again I think the Old Testament examples are relevant. Perhaps this womans story would sound better if she decided offer a nominal tithe until her standing merits a full 10%.

]]> By: Bishop Everyman http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/08/poll-prophetic-infallibility-obeying-the-prophet-and-being-blessed-for-obeying-the-prophet/#comment-89789 Bishop Everyman Fri, 10 Jul 2009 00:41:49 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6169#comment-89789 Regarding tithing and the disposition of fast offering funds... Let's see if we can land this plane. It is an individual's or family's responsibility to manage their personal finances. Should an individual find their income has decreased or ceased they need to manage the debt they owe. Many times in such situations the debt load is way beyond the means of the new income. The Bishop can help with fast offering funds as he counsels with the person facing the financial problems. I cannot imagine a scenario where a bishop would tell the reduced income member to pay 10% of their new income but not provide help in paying bills that the tithing money could have gone to. However, let's be realistic here more often than not the loss of income means that with or without tithing or fast offering funds there simply isn't enough money to meet the various creditors. Foreclosure happens, loss of jobs happens. Let's not blame a foreclosure on paying tithing. The Bishop has a lot of discretion with Fast Offering funds, but the funds are not limitless and fast offering is not the sum total of the welfare program of the church. I have yet to meet someone who realistically could not afford to pay their tithing where their bishop was willing to help through the various means available to him. If a member overspends then they haven't been wise with their resources and they're going to have to fix that. It may be that the bishop is unwilling to help pay for their overspending and in such a scenario the member may feel the need to stop paying tithing to pay their bills. The issue in this scenario is one of being wise with your resources. I think this person should stop paying tithing, stop attending the temple and get their lives in order because they're not be honest with how the deal with their fellow men. However, where a member is being careful and wise I think the bishop will help as he can and the member will have no ethical dilemna to deal with when it comes to paying their tithing. And in fact I think there will be great blessings from the Lord that come because of the their faithfulness. That member may still need to scale down their living to their new income level but a wise person understands this. Obeying Gods commandments don't get discarded when life gets tough. Regarding tithing and the disposition of fast offering funds… Let’s see if we can land this plane. It is an individual’s or family’s responsibility to manage their personal finances. Should an individual find their income has decreased or ceased they need to manage the debt they owe. Many times in such situations the debt load is way beyond the means of the new income. The Bishop can help with fast offering funds as he counsels with the person facing the financial problems. I cannot imagine a scenario where a bishop would tell the reduced income member to pay 10% of their new income but not provide help in paying bills that the tithing money could have gone to. However, let’s be realistic here more often than not the loss of income means that with or without tithing or fast offering funds there simply isn’t enough money to meet the various creditors. Foreclosure happens, loss of jobs happens. Let’s not blame a foreclosure on paying tithing.

The Bishop has a lot of discretion with Fast Offering funds, but the funds are not limitless and fast offering is not the sum total of the welfare program of the church. I have yet to meet someone who realistically could not afford to pay their tithing where their bishop was willing to help through the various means available to him.

If a member overspends then they haven’t been wise with their resources and they’re going to have to fix that. It may be that the bishop is unwilling to help pay for their overspending and in such a scenario the member may feel the need to stop paying tithing to pay their bills. The issue in this scenario is one of being wise with your resources. I think this person should stop paying tithing, stop attending the temple and get their lives in order because they’re not be honest with how the deal with their fellow men.

However, where a member is being careful and wise I think the bishop will help as he can and the member will have no ethical dilemna to deal with when it comes to paying their tithing. And in fact I think there will be great blessings from the Lord that come because of the their faithfulness. That member may still need to scale down their living to their new income level but a wise person understands this. Obeying Gods commandments don’t get discarded when life gets tough.

]]> By: Jen http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/08/poll-prophetic-infallibility-obeying-the-prophet-and-being-blessed-for-obeying-the-prophet/#comment-89783 Jen Fri, 10 Jul 2009 00:19:12 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6169#comment-89783 Gotta run, but so I don't threadjack, check out my website. Hilarious! Gotta run, but so I don’t threadjack, check out my website. Hilarious!

]]> By: Dexter http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/08/poll-prophetic-infallibility-obeying-the-prophet-and-being-blessed-for-obeying-the-prophet/#comment-89780 Dexter Fri, 10 Jul 2009 00:12:13 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6169#comment-89780 I'm sensing a "girl power!" comment any second now. I’m sensing a “girl power!” comment any second now.

]]> By: Jen http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/08/poll-prophetic-infallibility-obeying-the-prophet-and-being-blessed-for-obeying-the-prophet/#comment-89779 Jen Fri, 10 Jul 2009 00:10:01 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6169#comment-89779 Can someone tell me how you add a link onto a comment? Can someone tell me how you add a link onto a comment?

]]> By: Jen http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/08/poll-prophetic-infallibility-obeying-the-prophet-and-being-blessed-for-obeying-the-prophet/#comment-89776 Jen Fri, 10 Jul 2009 00:02:18 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6169#comment-89776 #102 "I think that what we do is make a choice and live with it" Amen to that! I am curious to know what counsel the prophet has given recently that might be a struggle for members? (besides the obvious...pornography) #102

“I think that what we do is make a choice and live with it”

Amen to that!

I am curious to know what counsel the prophet has given recently that might be a struggle for members? (besides the obvious…pornography)

]]> By: Cowboy http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/08/poll-prophetic-infallibility-obeying-the-prophet-and-being-blessed-for-obeying-the-prophet/#comment-89774 Cowboy Thu, 09 Jul 2009 23:55:55 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6169#comment-89774 BrJones (99, 100): - Fair enough. My point was not so much to challenge the woman, including the genuiness of her intentions, rather to show that institutionally it is questionable to encourage people to offer donations in lieu of paying bills. Jeff (96): As BrJones mentioned, the author provided enough information for me to state that she paid tithing in place of her bills. I will make one exception to my comments, that if she pre-arranged with her bishop to make sure that her debtors were compensated to at least the level they would have been had she paid bills instead of tithing. Her debtors should not take a loss so she and the Mormon Church can feel good about tithing. If her situation was pre-arranged like that I wouldn't question the ethics behind this, though I don't get the impression that it was. This would be tedious and seem unnecessary to me, but if it satisfies your religious conciense and provides a reasonable solution for the debtors, I wouldn't dispute this. BrJones (99, 100): – Fair enough. My point was not so much to challenge the woman, including the genuiness of her intentions, rather to show that institutionally it is questionable to encourage people to offer donations in lieu of paying bills.

Jeff (96): As BrJones mentioned, the author provided enough information for me to state that she paid tithing in place of her bills. I will make one exception to my comments, that if she pre-arranged with her bishop to make sure that her debtors were compensated to at least the level they would have been had she paid bills instead of tithing. Her debtors should not take a loss so she and the Mormon Church can feel good about tithing. If her situation was pre-arranged like that I wouldn’t question the ethics behind this, though I don’t get the impression that it was. This would be tedious and seem unnecessary to me, but if it satisfies your religious conciense and provides a reasonable solution for the debtors, I wouldn’t dispute this.

]]> By: Hawkgrrrl http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/08/poll-prophetic-infallibility-obeying-the-prophet-and-being-blessed-for-obeying-the-prophet/#comment-89770 Hawkgrrrl Thu, 09 Jul 2009 23:48:25 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6169#comment-89770 OK, maybe if I'm lucky I can somehow tie the tithing threadjack (I say that with love as it is a relevant example of the principle under discussion) back to the key principle of the OP: what do we do when a church leader tells us to do one thing and we feel that the advice doesn't apply to us? I think that what we do is make a choice and live with it. Some people choose to have faith (which is what we call it when it works out - we call it blind obedience and not taking personal accountability when it goes poorly), while others choose to follow the dictates of their own conscience combined with personal revelation (which is what we call self-justification when it goes poorly - we call it a valid exception when it goes well). Perhaps you can see from what I just wrote that the inherent flaw (or genius) of this model is that the institition (the church) always wins if there is a conflict between the institution (the church) and the individual and the results are undesirable. Maybe that's okay, though. There's a principle in the book "Good to Great" called the window and the mirror. Great leaders look in the mirror to assign responsibility for failure (what could I have done better?) and out the window to assign responsibility for success (e.g. it was good luck, others helped), while bad leaders look in the mirror to take credit for success (I am awesome) and out the window to assign responsibility for failure (others sabotaged me, it was bad luck). So, perhaps the eternal principle here is that whatever maximizes accountability is best, which is also what creates human development and growth, a very Mormon principle if we are to become like god. OK, maybe if I’m lucky I can somehow tie the tithing threadjack (I say that with love as it is a relevant example of the principle under discussion) back to the key principle of the OP: what do we do when a church leader tells us to do one thing and we feel that the advice doesn’t apply to us?

I think that what we do is make a choice and live with it. Some people choose to have faith (which is what we call it when it works out – we call it blind obedience and not taking personal accountability when it goes poorly), while others choose to follow the dictates of their own conscience combined with personal revelation (which is what we call self-justification when it goes poorly – we call it a valid exception when it goes well).

Perhaps you can see from what I just wrote that the inherent flaw (or genius) of this model is that the institition (the church) always wins if there is a conflict between the institution (the church) and the individual and the results are undesirable. Maybe that’s okay, though. There’s a principle in the book “Good to Great” called the window and the mirror. Great leaders look in the mirror to assign responsibility for failure (what could I have done better?) and out the window to assign responsibility for success (e.g. it was good luck, others helped), while bad leaders look in the mirror to take credit for success (I am awesome) and out the window to assign responsibility for failure (others sabotaged me, it was bad luck).

So, perhaps the eternal principle here is that whatever maximizes accountability is best, which is also what creates human development and growth, a very Mormon principle if we are to become like god.

]]> By: Jen http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/08/poll-prophetic-infallibility-obeying-the-prophet-and-being-blessed-for-obeying-the-prophet/#comment-89767 Jen Thu, 09 Jul 2009 23:46:56 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6169#comment-89767 I wonder if the church takes American Express? Imagine how many more might pay their tithing if they did. :) I wonder if the church takes American Express? Imagine how many more might pay their tithing if they did. :)

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