In a church that requires chastity but a world in which random hookups are the norm, what about the plight of single adults who are well past the average Mormon dating age? Or even more difficult, what about those divorced members who are committed to the law of chastity, but also facing the dating scene again? Today’s guest post is by Single Mormon Chick who also blogs at The Law of Chastity and the Modern Mormon Girl.
I was sooooooooooooooooo naive. I actually thought I would find my personal Peter Priesthood on one of those sites. What a joke! I feel compelled to give the following disclaimer. I am not, nor do I claim to be anything close to perfect. I am no Molly. I can’t carry a tune or play the piano. Prairie skirts and fluffy bangs look horrible on me (I know–I am dating myself).
But seriously, I am a cool chick and I made a commitment before I even started dating at 16 to keep the law of chastity. After my divorce, I committed myself again to following the law of chastity. It wasnt easy. Those feelings and desires just dont go away when you sign the divorce papers. I was married to a non-member, and when I started thinking about dating again, I figured I would date both members and non-members. My first “relationship” was with a non-member. I was crazy for this guy and he was crazy for me, but he just could not wrap his mind around two adults being in love and not having sex. It was difficult to explain. I had been sexually active, and now I was just going to stop? Was I insane? Frigid? A little of both?
When I broke up with that guy, I decided that I would date only members. Even if they didnt follow the law of chastity themselves, they would get why I did. Right? WRONG! After I signed up and logged on, it was like I was the “belle of the ball.” It was a huge ego boost, but what I soon realized is that it had very little to do with me. I was simply fresh meat and the sharks were circling.
After the frenzy died down, there were 2 or 3 men that I continued to IM and email, but where it got interesting is about every week or so I would get a new “hit”–someone would just pop in with an IM and start flirting with me. Hard. When i would look at their profiles I would find that the majority of these guys were KIDS. I mean KIDS: age range from 21(hello horny RM) to 26. This really surprised me. I was so out of their age bracket. I even asked them, “Did you notice my age?” and got responses along the lines of ”Older chicks are cool!”
What I quickly learned is the reason older chicks are “cool” is because many of us are divorced which means we were previously sexually active, and quite possibly more open to being sexually active now and teaching a few things to the youngsters. One of the kids actually told me “everything, but . . .” was OK, and you would be worthy to keep your temple recommend. What?! One young man was looking for a more geographically convenient hookup. There was one girl he had been “seeing” on the other side of town, and he was talking to me because I lived in his area. Are you feeling all warm and fuzzy? A few tears coming to your eyes? I met a lot of men on those sites. Some were nice. Of all the men I met, I am still on friendly terms with two.
My conclusion is, for the most part, that the LDS dating sites are cyber singles bars where men (women, too, I am sure) can easily hide the big ole skeletons in their closet behind pretending to be a faithful (notice I didnt say perfect) member of the church.
So, what can single (or divorced) adults of a certain age do if they want to keep the law of chastity while dating? Is it a lost cause? What are your experiences with Mormon dating sites? Is chastity after divorce unrealistic? Have any of you experienced the “Reverse Cougar” described above (young Mormon male seeks experienced hot older female)? Is there a better way?
Discuss.
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I met my wife on LDSLinkup. She and I were talking about sports and politics, not showing any romantic interests on the message boards. One day, I decided to go down to NYC (where she was living—I was in Massachusetts) and meet her and this other person from the site who was visiting NYC. My wife showed me around New York (I had never been there), and we fell in love. Three months later, I proposed to her, and eight months after that we were married.
One thing I noticed about LDSLinkup (I hadn’t participated much in other sites like LDSSingles, or…I forget the name of the other one), was that many people who participated on the message board shared a lot of frustration with being single, being alone. Many were socially stunted, while others were social bees. My conclusion about those who were actively searching for a mate on these sites is that they are people who have generally given up on the dating scene in their local areas and expanding their search nationally and internationally. There was a sense of desperation from some.
The “Reverse Cougar (young Mormon male seeks experienced hot older female)” is something getting popular these days. I read an artical in one of my wife’s lady magazines. The artical was about how Hot Moms (I am not using the more vulgar but relatively more popular term that the artical used) are a big thing with young men. And that it’s kind of a new trend for young guys to seek out experienced/older women. And it looks like it applies to Mormons too.
So you should accept and embrase it.
I met my ex-fiance on an LDS dating site, so I know there are good, interesting guys out there (he’s a great guy where things just didn’t work out for the two of us). But just like dating in other arenas, meeting people on-line is very hit and miss. Sometimes you’ll find interesting people to talk to and get to know, and sometimes you won’t. Also, before I’d seriously date anyone from a site, I’d spend a lot of time getting to know them.
Being single (and never having been married), I haven’t had the difficulties that you are having with on-line dating sites. I tend to not have many guys send me messages, etc.–probably at least partly because I have my profile written in such a way as to screen out guys who wouldn’t be interested in dating me. I initiate a lot of the contact, but I’m okay with this.
I’m currently debating dating non-mormons, but I’ve had difficulties in the past with this (both in regards to the sex/chastity thing, and in regards to the whole not-getting-religion at all thing), and I haven’t made up my mind what I’m going to do. I’ve thought of possibly finding guys from other religious traditions who while not necessarily living the law of chastity themselves, would at least somewhat understand where I’m coming from religiously.
No, chastity is not a lost cause. I spent a year as a single adult (33 yrs old) Mormon between the end of my first marriage and the start of my second one. None of the single LDS women I dated propositioned me, though two non-LDS women did. I managed to stay well on the right side of all lines and boundaries during that period, even in the face of some very real (and commitment-free) temptation. My greatest defense against those temptations was to simply remember my temple covenants — I did not want to have to explain any chastity violation to my bishop (particularly post-divorce), nor to my future wife, nor particularly to God.
On the other hand, I developed great sympathy for single LDS women, particularly those above 30 or so, both from that period and also from six years in the DC Branch/Chevy Chase Ward (during part of that time I was in the bishopric and ended up giving blessings to several of the older single women in the ward). My observation is that there are far more faithful LDS single women above that age than there are faithful LDS single men above that age. The pickings (for women) are slim, and — sadly — there are plenty of not-so-faithful LDS men who seek to take advantage of that for their own gratification. Online dating services — and this isn’t a knock against them, just an observation — gives such men broader and more effective hunting grounds than the local single adult dances. Most technology cuts two ways; this is just another example.
Anyway, sorry for the scum out there (I came through that year of single adulthood pretty disgusted with a lot of the older single LDS men out there). Yes, it is possible to stay chaste and it is definitely worth it. As far as the potential husbands go, my standard advice is: it only takes one. Just make sure he really is a good one. ..bruce..
I’m in my late 30s, never married, and have dated a fair amount over the years. I know that quite a few people have experiences similar to the ones you mention, but for whatever reason, I have never been pressured to compromise my standards. Granted, most of the men I’ve dated aren’t men I’ve met online. But those few I have met from online dating sites have generally turned out to be decent people. (I have a pretty strict filter though. And I just ignore the messages I get from people outside my age bracket.)
I know a number of people who have met their spouses online, and they are good, quality people. Clearly online dating does work sometimes. I just wish I knew how to meet men I can relate to. *sigh*
I should have mentioned that several of the people I know who’ve had success with online dating HAVE been divorced.
I had some cool dates from LDS internet singles websites, and I wasn’t looking to jump them. Found my wife locally through more traditional means, fortunately. I do want to say that preying on divorce members goes both ways. One of my mission companions is now divorced and living in the SLC area. As part of his work, he makes so contacts with clients in their homes and some older women that he has correspondence with, apparently aware that his situation now involves law of chastity abstinence, have invited him to come back for no strings hookups. For him in his 40s, however, the 50-60 year old women making such offers were not too tempting.
There was a 40-something guy who briefly used to work for me years ago when LDS singles was a new site, and he used to troll there for naive 20-something LDS girls because they were easy to seduce, in his opinion, if he posed as a Mormon. He thought it was hilarious how easily he could get them into bed by using Mormon-speak and pretending to be a divorced RM. IIRC, he was not LDS, but knew the culture from observation living in Utah.
Another person I know went on a few dates with someone from LDS singles before determining he was married with kids. But we also have friends who are happily married and well suited who met on LDS singles, so you never know!
How reliable are sites like eHarmony at matching up those who are LDS?
I haven’t tried any of the singles sites. My wife won’t let me.
Ray, just wait ’til polygamy comes back, and then you ought to be able to have at it, permission or no.
*shudder*
#10-
Isn’t that funny!
#12 – Yes, it isn’t.
I know a couple that met online through one of the LDS singles sites, and they were made for each other. One is actually a doctor and the other a nurse.
I do know another couple who met online (not sure where, but they are both lds) they aren’t doing so well.
Anyway, good luck!
I’ve been divorced for about a year now, I tried the lds websites and was not at all impressed with the people on their, didn’t actually have a date with anyone but I didn’t give it much time. What do other singles in the late twenties early thirties think of how the church is set up to deal with us? That may not be the best way to word the question but am I the only one that’s frustrated? I attended (occasionally) a singles branch last year, never felt like I fit in. I was 30 at the time and I think most attending were 18 to 22. And now I’m being invited by a couple of 50+ guys to attend the singles activities. I honestly haven’t gone to any but can’t say I have my hopes up. I’m in a fairly sparsely populated area and can’t move or go out of town very easily because I have kids and shared custody. I just don’t feel like I belong anywhere…
Sorry to complain so much, it’s just frustrating.
OK, I’m not in the same boat, but if I were divorced (not planning anything, BTW), I would probably consider a site like eHarmony (as I asked above). I just wondered how well it deals with those who are LDS and want to date LDS and how well it can deal with something like a request to stay celibate outside of marriage. If anyone wants to check it out, we can do a “return & report” follow up piece.
I really do feel for the singles who are adults in the church and trying to live the law of chastity. I can only imagine how tough it is with the playing field reduced so much. My heart goes out to all in that situation. And to those seeking a reverse cougar, shame on you! What would your mother say??
Glad things worked out for you, Dan. Perhaps it’s best used for older singles, but LDSLinkup has never brought good to any of the twentysomethings I’ve known who’s used it. A friend of mine has decided that LDSLinkup was the best place for her to find mormon guys to date. It’s been nothing but disaster for her, getting her guys that are completely not serious about the gospel (not an influence she desperately needs these days). She is a very attractive young woman who only seems to bring in those lovely horny RMs that are desperate for the best action they can get, which she somehow seems to be semi-naive to. Without boring you with unnecessary details, LDS dating sites have done nothing but harm her spirituality, though they purport to bring her together with someone with LDS standards. IMO, twentysomethings are much better off finding prospects in their YSA wards. At least then, you know whether the guy actually attends his church meetings and works to magnify his calling.
Rant completed.
Most LDS singles who are single for any extended period of time (unless you are one of the ultra-popular ones) experience this frustration, regardless of whether they are in Utah or Timbuktu. Most of us pull ourselves out of bitterness, but we all experience frustration. It really is disproportionately harder when you are older.
If there are any easy solutions to the mess of Mormon dating, it is a mystery to me.
The biggest lesson to learn, in some ways, is to learn to be happy in spite of these kind of problems. That is often a lesson we have to learn first, before we gain other blessings.
And I can second that about singles wards – I thought it was just me.
In England there are only a couple of single adult wards and so for the rest it can be a struggle trying to date someone who lives 5 hours from you. Singles sites never really worked for anyone I know over here. When I was single i never propositioned or got propositioned but maybe I just not that desirable. I know lots of people here that don’t do YSA stuff because it is just too much pressure and not alot to go from, so lots of people just take a more open approach to dating anyone who is a good person.
I attended a Utah University, though not BYU. The biggest challenge our Bishopric(s) had in our singles wards was finding worthy members to fill callings. Why, because they are all basically sexually active (in some form, sex, necking/petting, etc) with each other. Of course you don’t need an ecclesiastical endorsement to attend other schools, so the singles ward thing only works if your at BYU. Otherwise your dealing with the same issues I think whether online, or in person. Though, by observation, guy’s who are looking for “hook-ups” will usually gravitate towards willing women to “hook-up”. Women who define their character to the “sharks” early on are likely to naturally repel the majority of them.
I think “cowboy” really hit the target. If you “define your character”, ie: make it known you won’t be fooling around in the biblical sense, many men just aren’t interested. It’s a shame. You can look at it from a gospel perspective or even a secular point of view, jumping into bed and having random hook-ups does not result in the kind of relationship most of us are looking for. Some of the men I met on the single sites complained about their ex-spouses being reluctant and sometimes down right refusing their sexual advances after they were married. I can understand a man wanting to be sure he isn’t going to have a non existent sex life in his next marriage and wanting to “try it before he buys it”, kick the tires so to speak,but isn’t that where we need to depend on some serious personal revelation and have faith that it can all be worked out and the fireworks will be lighted? It’s not unheard of where a woman will fake a high sex drive just to “hook” a man and then turn into a frigid prude after the ring is on her finger. It’s a gamble no matter what. Seems like winning would be more sure if things were done the Lord’s way. Rambling and thinking out loud.
I don’t want to over-generalize my comment. I am sure dating is considerably different outside of Utah. I’ve been out of the dating scene for nearly 10 years now. I did use LDSSingles, and I met some fantastic people there. Some of the women I dated were divorced, some were never-married. I guess I’ve always been known of as “picky” (I had more than one person tell me that), but I never experienced any of the situations you mentioned. The divorced women I dated made it very clear they still wanted a temple marriage, which was quite appealing to me.
Some of the women I dated, did talk about some of the sleazy people on the websites. I had a goal to marry in the temple, and wanted to meet people with similar goals. In Utah, I think it is relatively easy to find someone with a similar view about the church. I found the people I met online to be high caliber (professionally and spiritually), and I actually found it a better place to meet people than in a traditional singles ward (though I must confess, I met my wife at a singles ward activity.) I actually recommended the website to others, who had generally good experiences as well. So, I guess what I’m saying is, you still have to screen people online the same way you do in person. Not everybody who I went to church with was someone I wanted to date, and neither were the people online.
If my wife were to die (I’m not planning on a divorce), I would probably consider both a singles wards and LDSSingles.com. I had a good experience in both.
I have had 5 friends find soul mate on Mormon dating sites.
As a member of a Bishopric in a singles ward and a former Bishop I can say one thing. I cannot believe that many of the single sisters remain unmarried. I am not quite sure what men are looking for but by and large most of you need to wake up and take a “deeper” look.
After growing up on in the church, dating and finding an incredible spouse,being a Bishop and reading this particular post I am convinced that the vast majority of men in and out of the church and essentially pigs.
Hawk, mormons are not allowed to participate on eHarmony.com becuase we are not Christians and may convert someone. This is what I have been told and what I can gather online.
“Hawk, mormons are not allowed to participate on eHarmony.com becuase we are not Christians and may convert someone. This is what I have been told and what I can gather online.” You are totally kidding me?!? I was not aware of that. Wow. Just wow. I confess I’ve not been on that site because I’ve been married since the internet was still just a gleam in Al Gore’s eye.
I thought eHarmony was just a computerized dating site. Is it a religious dating site?
The founder has his Masters of Divinity from Princeton and is heavily involved with Dr, Dobsons Focus on the Family.
—”As a member of a Bishopric in a singles ward and a former Bishop I can say one thing. I cannot believe that many of the single sisters remain unmarried. I am not quite sure what men are looking for but by and large most of you need to wake up and take a “deeper” look.”—
Hold on – some of us have stopped attending singles activities because these wonderful women won’t give us the time of day. Maybe only the “pigs” as you call them stay in the singles wards – I don’t know, but even I wouldn’t say that. And I am far from the only guy who feels that way.
There is only so much us good guys can do. I think the criticism needs to be a little more balanced and nuanced, rather than just, “the men are pigs”.
27 ThomasB – I knew that Dobson was a fairweather friend! I posted on the “strange bedfellows” that allies like Focus on the Family make a few months ago: http://mormonmatters.org/2009/03/20/strange-bedfellows/
Darn that Dobson!
ThomasB and Hawk,
Mormons can participate in e-Harmony along with any other religious group you just let the computer know how important it is to you that your matches are the same religion you are. So if it’s very important your matches are LDS then they will only match you with fellow members.
I’ve attended a Singles Ward off and on since my divorce. These are my biggest complaints:
1) I’m 30 years old, why am I attending a singles ward with 18 year olds. I, or others in my position or age group, may seem like creepy old men to 18 year olds. I don’t understand why we would be grouped together, we have different goals and are in different stages of life. I’m not going to school, I’m not preparing for a mission, I’m not a kid. Why am I in the same group? It may just be about numbers, let them go up to thirty to get more numbers to the branch. It just doesn’t feel like much thought was put into it.
2) I don’t feel welcome, I’m not the most outgoing person in the world but it seems like somebody would at least look at you when you go to the branch. I attended a ward yesterday in another stake, I went to the beach for the weekend and the only ones who even glanced my direction were the missionaries (and they were convinced I was not a member… is facial hair THAT big of a deal, maybe topic of another discussion) In Sunday School you’d think they would just introduce the visitors, not in any singles ward I’ve been to.
3) I’m now 31 and so I’m now officially too old to go Young Single Adults so where do I fit in? It’s weird going to the family ward, I have a hard time relating with people there and I have no other options anymore. I’m in California and they’re doing some big YSA activity this fall and so I assumed I wasn’t invited, but now I’m informed they’ll let people 31 or 32 years old go because they need more numbers or possibly because my dad wants me to do it and he’s a stake president. Not sure which it is…
But I do agree with Zen about the comment on “the men are pigs”.
Jenkins,
You might be interested in the Middle Singles activities, and the Middle Singles Conferences, such as the Orange County/Beach Cities one happen this July 31-Aug. 2.
http://www.asingleplace.com/
Some people have great luck with them, or so I am told, but worst case scenario, you have a bunch of other 30-ish and 40-ish singles in the same boat you are.
Good luck
Jenkins,
Thank you for the clarification. Zen and Jenkins my apologies for my sweeping generalization. Please understand this “knee jerk” comment comes from years as a observer and years as a priesthood leader (including 6 as a Bishop). To many men are not good stewards of the priesthood. To many priesthood leaders cut to much slack for these “men” when they use women (meaning wives, girlfriend, or girls they pretty much just consider as personal receptacles). Am I painting a clear picture for you. Keep reading because I am not done and now that I think about it I am angry!
How about the 19 year old sister that came to me as her Bishop and related that she had been having sex with a young man in the stake who said after he was through using her that he was not interested in her. She saw herself as damaged goods that not even the Atonement could repair. Nice eh? It took weeks for her to divulge his name because she did not want him to be mad at her.
How about my sister whose husband cheated on her and begged forgiveness. Against her better judgement she agreed. In about 3 weeks he was back to cheating. He moved out and when he had the kids (aged 4 – 11) on the weekend he was doing overnighters with his new chickie in the apartment. She brought this up to the Bishop who stated “Well we do not want to push him away”. He also warned her to “not step out of line”. Give me a break.
How about my parents neighbors whose husband worked for church security and was caught cheating by his wife. Her Bishop counseled her not to get worked up and to maintain standards and implied that after talking to him that this was likely her fault. What
happened to him? Nothing.
If you would like me to share stories I would be more than happy to start a blog. It is not just about the guys who are involved in the behavior it is also some leaders that make excuses for them and continue to foster the adage that women hold all the cards in these situations and that us poor guys just cannot control ourselves if the “forbidden fruit” is offered to us. It is ignorant and it is also incorrect.
Now that I have ranted let me give you some counsel and you can take it or leave it. Please get past the age thing and get to the prayer thing. Be humble. I have met plenty of singles your age both male and female that are fantastic people. My oldest brother did not marry until he was 31. He was engaged 3 times before he found the right one. One of my roommates was 29 and married a 19 year old. They have an incredible marriage, incredible kids and an incredible life. I could keep going here as well.
I know it is easy for me to say but do not get down on yourself. The biggest problem I see with YSA’s is the panic that sets in about 29 – 30. They start traveling the ends of the earth on Sundays looking for the right one and never seem to find any peace. I think Pres. Uctdorff or Elder Bednar gave a talk recently titled “Lift where you Stand”. Just the title is great counsel. The fact is if you are 32 and still not comfortable in the family ward then talk to the respective Bishops. You should be where you are best served and the handbook expressly stresses that. When you finally hit that destination ask your Bishop how you can serve the ward best. Let him know you need his insight so you can reach your goals. Then be an example to those 18 year olds. Most of them do not know squat and could use some spiritual mentors. I had plenty when I was 18 and living in a student ward in Provo. I was one of the few freshman in the ward because it just was not a “freshman” neighborhood. Let me tell you something. The members of that ward did mentor us. They were our friends and our support system and I owe a debt to many of them.
So do not give up and do not despair. Lift where you stand. Go to the YSA conference in CA. Maybe I will see you there. Oh yes do not ever become pigs.
Your post is full of feeling and real emotion. Thank you for this. I am not in your situation, but I am trying to understand my place in a very difficult and turbulent time of my life as a married-but-separated man, trying to make his marriage work, but not really welcome in my own ward. Where do I go?
Truth is “Where Do I Go?” Is kind of my life theme right now.
Thanks for your perspective, and good luck to you!
ThomasB,
You seem to view the 19year old as a victim, and not a willing participant. Sure, she was treated badly, but why did she sleep with the guy in the first place? She knew better. Why isn’t she a pig too? (Ok, maybe she’s a more repentant pig, but still a pig nonetheless.)
Isn’t the overnight chickie also a pig? Why are you not recognizing that it takes 2 to tango?
I agree that some of the church leaders offered TERRRIBLE advice on cheating husbands.
When it comes to people who cheat, both men and women are pigs. Let’s not forget that the women are cheating too. Yes some men don’t honor their priesthood, but the women who accept their advances aren’t blameless either.
Firstly, I am a new convert. But I thought that chastity was a requirement of being a member? There should be no question about this, right? The answer always lies in the gospel and reliance upon God. I was thinking of joining one of these sites, but I will continue to pray and fast until the answer comes to me where my eternal wife is. (Hopefully she does not mind skinny guys from too much fasting?) I have faith that if I am earnest, God shall bring me to her.
I don’t see that there is really much room for interpretation on this one. Following the gospel will bring us to a pure state whereby we will be drawn to the right one for us.
Jordan,
People who have been through the temple and break the Law of Chastity are excommunicated. People who haven’t made the temple covenants are often treated with “kid gloves” for breaking the law of chastity. For example, teens who are promiscuous generally go through the repentance process with their bishop, and usually do not lose their membership. Certainly there is some church punishment meted out (such as not taking the sacrament, or other things the bishop deems worthwhile.)
You are right that the Law of Chastity is a requirement to be a member, as is the Word of Wisdom, and tithing.
Jordan-
You are right-all members are required to follow the Law of Chastity. If they choose not to, there is always repentance, but that’s not always easy. I have known 2 people personally who had affairs(they were endowed members, sealed to their spouses)and were not ex-communicated; they were disfellowshipped. Each case is prayerfully considered by the bishop,stake president, and church court before any action is taken. Your way-prayer and fasting is the best way! You are doing the right things that all of us should do to find our eternal companions.
I am in my early fifties, recently forcably retired and my wife has been dead for several years. I found that rather than being considered an eternal family, I was suddenly reduced to being a single.
I tried to participate in the “singles” program in the ward, but always felt out of place there. I was the only one who wasn’t divorced. Several of the sisters were single because their husbands “traded them in on a newer model” and they evidently wanted nothing to do with men. I found that I could ask folks out to dinner, or “safe dates” only to be turned down. Finally I just couldn’t accept the rejection and realized that it hurt less to just stay home than to go to church each Sunday only to be ignored.
In one Ensign article a single man wrote that he felt unaccepted in his ward, that he was something that would not go away and so must be tolerated. I feel that way much of the time.
So if there is such a shortage of worthy men in the church, why is it that I am unwanted? I really miss my wife and there isn’t a day that goes by without my thinking of her, but I would also rather not be alone the rest of my life.
Or is it simpler to believe that all men are pigs, and thus give approval to yourself to ignore those of us who are “available?” It isn’t as if I am destitute, since I have lived a prudent life and have provided for myself financially. My home is paid for free and clear, and I expect to be able to continue my style of living.
Isn’t there some compatable soul out there who would like to share it with me?