Comments on: Dancing Through the Sidebar http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/11/dancing-through-the-sidebar-6/ A weekly podcast exploring Mormon culture and current events. Thu, 24 May 2012 04:10:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: brjones http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/11/dancing-through-the-sidebar-6/#comment-92088 brjones Mon, 20 Jul 2009 17:18:09 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6231#comment-92088 #25 - Jon, I can't really speak to this issue with any degree of confidence because a)I'm not gay and b) I don't have a lot of experience with such groups. I know that obviously there are people who believe they are effective, and many others who disagree. My overall perception is that the majority of homosexuals reject the idea that homosexuality can be "de-programmed." Of course it may just be that most gays have never tried or that the dominant voice of the gay movement is controlled by those who are opposed to such groups. Whatever the reason, I think it is a small minority that holds the position that homosexuality can be unlearned. My personal instinct would be that homosexuality is not generally a chosen behavior (although that's not to say it is not EVER chosen) and that it can't really be de-programmed. That said, I don't think it's too far fetched to believe that one can subjugate and "overcome" homosexual desires through exercises, meditation, etc. However, I think it would be possible to do that with pretty much any human desire if you really wanted to, so I'm not sure what it proves. I'm attracted to women, but if I had a strong enough desire to neutralize that desire, I could put myself in a position to push that desire down and make it dormant. I don't think that would change the fact that I am attracted to women, but would only allow me to operate without that desire affecting me on a regular basis. Similarly, I don't think most homosexuals that are involved in groups like EI are really changing their sexual orientation. But hey, whatever works for people in their own lives is fine with me. I do think it's sad that the dominant religious culture in this country shames and cows people into thinking they need to do that to be accepted, even by themselves. In fact I think that's tragic, and that much I do know from personal experience. But as to my familiarity with groups such as EI, it is very shallow. If you have thoughts on the issue you'd like to share, I'd be interested to hear them. #25 – Jon, I can’t really speak to this issue with any degree of confidence because a)I’m not gay and b) I don’t have a lot of experience with such groups. I know that obviously there are people who believe they are effective, and many others who disagree. My overall perception is that the majority of homosexuals reject the idea that homosexuality can be “de-programmed.” Of course it may just be that most gays have never tried or that the dominant voice of the gay movement is controlled by those who are opposed to such groups. Whatever the reason, I think it is a small minority that holds the position that homosexuality can be unlearned. My personal instinct would be that homosexuality is not generally a chosen behavior (although that’s not to say it is not EVER chosen) and that it can’t really be de-programmed. That said, I don’t think it’s too far fetched to believe that one can subjugate and “overcome” homosexual desires through exercises, meditation, etc. However, I think it would be possible to do that with pretty much any human desire if you really wanted to, so I’m not sure what it proves. I’m attracted to women, but if I had a strong enough desire to neutralize that desire, I could put myself in a position to push that desire down and make it dormant. I don’t think that would change the fact that I am attracted to women, but would only allow me to operate without that desire affecting me on a regular basis. Similarly, I don’t think most homosexuals that are involved in groups like EI are really changing their sexual orientation. But hey, whatever works for people in their own lives is fine with me. I do think it’s sad that the dominant religious culture in this country shames and cows people into thinking they need to do that to be accepted, even by themselves. In fact I think that’s tragic, and that much I do know from personal experience. But as to my familiarity with groups such as EI, it is very shallow.

If you have thoughts on the issue you’d like to share, I’d be interested to hear them.

]]> By: brjones http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/11/dancing-through-the-sidebar-6/#comment-92081 brjones Mon, 20 Jul 2009 17:06:26 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6231#comment-92081 #23, 24 & 26 - Jon, I have no desire to silence the viewpoints of those who don't feel the same as me. Do I wish more people thought like I do? If it's an issue that I think is important and there is one correct position, then of course I do. I don't think that makes me different from anyone else. Clearly you feel as strongly about your position on this issue as I do, and I completely respect that. Just because I argue strenuously about an issue doesn't mean I want to silence anyone's views. However, that is a completely different issue that my desire to eliminate hateful and damaging comments like some of the ones you have made in the context of the issue of homosexuality. In my opinion, it is unwarranted, unsupportable and inappropriate in a civilized conversation about any issue. You compared gay sex to child murder. I can scarcely think of a comment more repugnant. And frankly, the fact that you may know gay people who feel the same way is completely irrelevant. If there are gay people who feel that gay sex is akin to child murder, they are absolutely wrong and offensive as well, and I would have no problem telling them so. I appreciate that you and others strongly feel that homosexuality is a grave sin, and that your feelings are rooted in scripture and religious teachings. Although I disagree, I am fine with this position. But I don't think there's any need for the vitriol or hatefulness that has made its way into some of your comments. To put it much more mildly than I did before, that's all I'm saying. #23, 24 & 26 – Jon, I have no desire to silence the viewpoints of those who don’t feel the same as me. Do I wish more people thought like I do? If it’s an issue that I think is important and there is one correct position, then of course I do. I don’t think that makes me different from anyone else. Clearly you feel as strongly about your position on this issue as I do, and I completely respect that. Just because I argue strenuously about an issue doesn’t mean I want to silence anyone’s views. However, that is a completely different issue that my desire to eliminate hateful and damaging comments like some of the ones you have made in the context of the issue of homosexuality. In my opinion, it is unwarranted, unsupportable and inappropriate in a civilized conversation about any issue. You compared gay sex to child murder. I can scarcely think of a comment more repugnant. And frankly, the fact that you may know gay people who feel the same way is completely irrelevant. If there are gay people who feel that gay sex is akin to child murder, they are absolutely wrong and offensive as well, and I would have no problem telling them so. I appreciate that you and others strongly feel that homosexuality is a grave sin, and that your feelings are rooted in scripture and religious teachings. Although I disagree, I am fine with this position. But I don’t think there’s any need for the vitriol or hatefulness that has made its way into some of your comments. To put it much more mildly than I did before, that’s all I’m saying.

]]> By: Jon Miranda http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/11/dancing-through-the-sidebar-6/#comment-91492 Jon Miranda Fri, 17 Jul 2009 13:15:23 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6231#comment-91492 brjones And I do want to concede to you that I can find better ways to present my opinions and thoughts while at the same time holding on the the idea that censorship is in no one's best interest. brjones
And I do want to concede to you that I can find better ways to present my opinions and thoughts while at the same time holding on the the idea that censorship is in no one’s best interest.

]]> By: Jon Miranda http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/11/dancing-through-the-sidebar-6/#comment-91489 Jon Miranda Fri, 17 Jul 2009 13:03:00 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6231#comment-91489 BRJONES: May I also ask this What do you think of organizations like Evergreen International that say homosexual desires can be diminished? Not being facetious, I would like to know. Thanks. BRJONES:
May I also ask this
What do you think of organizations like Evergreen International that say homosexual desires can be diminished?
Not being facetious, I would like to know. Thanks.

]]> By: Jon Miranda http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/11/dancing-through-the-sidebar-6/#comment-91484 Jon Miranda Fri, 17 Jul 2009 12:57:27 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6231#comment-91484 I notice that gay rights are a very uppity issue with people and that usually controversial topics like this will get alot of comments on blogs. This means that people feel very deeply and strongly about this. They are all opinions of the bloggers. Even though you may not like what someone says, diffeent opinions keep things interesting and lively. BRJONES: Would you prefer that people only blog on here that agree with you? I notice that gay rights are a very uppity issue with people and that usually controversial topics like this will get alot of comments on blogs. This means that people feel very deeply and strongly about this. They are all opinions of the bloggers. Even though you may not like what someone says, diffeent opinions keep things interesting and lively.

BRJONES:
Would you prefer that people only blog on here that agree with you?

]]> By: Jon Miranda http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/11/dancing-through-the-sidebar-6/#comment-91482 Jon Miranda Fri, 17 Jul 2009 12:45:06 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6231#comment-91482 They are many "GAYS' that recognize that it is not a good thing to act on these desires, that doing so leads down a path that will benefot no one including themselves. There is an opposing view out there that you cannot silence just because you don't find that it suits you. They are many “GAYS’ that recognize that it is not a good thing to act on these desires, that doing so leads down a path that will benefot no one including themselves. There is an opposing view out there that you cannot silence just because you don’t find that it suits you.

]]> By: brjones http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/11/dancing-through-the-sidebar-6/#comment-91429 brjones Fri, 17 Jul 2009 03:23:52 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6231#comment-91429 Jon, your comparison to homosexual desires to child murder are so offensive that making fun of them is about the only way I could address them without being banned from this blog. Ironically, most people in your church (including most of its leaders) try to compare gay desires to unmarried heterosexual desires in defending the church's position on homosexuality. I'll give you this - at least you're honest. Your comments are consistently hateful, bigoted, ignorant and flatly disgusting. That said, they are also comical. If you would prefer I stop observing the humor in my editorials, I'll just stick to being brutally honest. I would challenge anyone to go through all the comments I have ever posted on this blog and come up with any that are intentionally disrespectful. That said, your comments, including #19 in this thread, are absolutely unworthy of my respect. Jon, your comparison to homosexual desires to child murder are so offensive that making fun of them is about the only way I could address them without being banned from this blog. Ironically, most people in your church (including most of its leaders) try to compare gay desires to unmarried heterosexual desires in defending the church’s position on homosexuality. I’ll give you this – at least you’re honest. Your comments are consistently hateful, bigoted, ignorant and flatly disgusting. That said, they are also comical. If you would prefer I stop observing the humor in my editorials, I’ll just stick to being brutally honest. I would challenge anyone to go through all the comments I have ever posted on this blog and come up with any that are intentionally disrespectful. That said, your comments, including #19 in this thread, are absolutely unworthy of my respect.

]]> By: Jon Miranda http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/11/dancing-through-the-sidebar-6/#comment-91425 Jon Miranda Fri, 17 Jul 2009 02:41:40 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6231#comment-91425 BR Jones: Calling someone/something ridiculous because it does not go with how you see things is a very inmature thing to do. Nothing that I have said is inconsistent with gospel teachings. BR Jones:
Calling someone/something ridiculous because it does not go with how you see things is a very inmature thing to do.
Nothing that I have said is inconsistent with gospel teachings.

]]> By: brjones http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/11/dancing-through-the-sidebar-6/#comment-91165 brjones Thu, 16 Jul 2009 03:59:38 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6231#comment-91165 I'm now convinced that Jon Miranda is not a real person, or if he is, his posts are not serious. He's just here to lighten the mood with his purposefully ridiculous quips. Jon, thanks for taking the time, buddy. I’m now convinced that Jon Miranda is not a real person, or if he is, his posts are not serious. He’s just here to lighten the mood with his purposefully ridiculous quips. Jon, thanks for taking the time, buddy.

]]> By: Jon Miranda http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/11/dancing-through-the-sidebar-6/#comment-90965 Jon Miranda Wed, 15 Jul 2009 13:00:04 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6231#comment-90965 Some unconventional thinking 1. The gay lifestyle is a deadly addiction, both spiritually and physically and should be avoided at all costs. 2. One should no more act on gay urges than one would act on urges to kill or to molest children. Do we not ask people to get help when they say they have urges to kill or molest kids? 3. We have been promised that same sex attraction was not present in the pre-existence and will not be present after this life. See God Loveth His Children pamphlet. www.evergreeninternational.org Some unconventional thinking

1. The gay lifestyle is a deadly addiction, both spiritually and physically and should be avoided at all costs.
2. One should no more act on gay urges than one would act on urges to kill or to molest children. Do we not ask people to get help when they say they have urges to kill or molest kids?
3. We have been promised that same sex attraction was not present in the pre-existence and will not be present after this life. See God Loveth His Children pamphlet.

http://www.evergreeninternational.org

]]> By: Andrew S http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/11/dancing-through-the-sidebar-6/#comment-90939 Andrew S Wed, 15 Jul 2009 07:19:23 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6231#comment-90939 that's exactly why the truth that is testified to people can differ drastically, right? and that common sense is often uncommon and nonsensical, right? that’s exactly why the truth that is testified to people can differ drastically, right? and that common sense is often uncommon and nonsensical, right?

]]> By: Jon Miranda http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/11/dancing-through-the-sidebar-6/#comment-90921 Jon Miranda Wed, 15 Jul 2009 04:56:28 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6231#comment-90921 #16 Alot in life can be discerned by common sense. The risen Lord promised that he would send the comforter to testify of truth. Truth is truth and truth is eternal. #16
Alot in life can be discerned by common sense. The risen Lord promised that he would send the comforter to testify of truth. Truth is truth and truth is eternal.

]]> By: brjones http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/11/dancing-through-the-sidebar-6/#comment-90713 brjones Tue, 14 Jul 2009 17:09:05 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6231#comment-90713 #14 - Jon, what makes this comment so deliciously ironic is that during his life, joseph smith intimated that he himself may have been the holy ghost incarnate. If it's the sex abuse and scandal that you're shocked about, I would direct you to Adam F's post from yesterday. #14 – Jon, what makes this comment so deliciously ironic is that during his life, joseph smith intimated that he himself may have been the holy ghost incarnate. If it’s the sex abuse and scandal that you’re shocked about, I would direct you to Adam F’s post from yesterday.

]]> By: Dexter http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/11/dancing-through-the-sidebar-6/#comment-90704 Dexter Tue, 14 Jul 2009 16:28:08 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6231#comment-90704 Jon: What makes them gullible? Their spiritual confirmations aren't valid, but yours are? I think it is hilarious how members of the LDS church so easily mock the beliefs of JW's and many other religions as silly and nonsensical. It seems a bit hypocritical. Jon:

What makes them gullible? Their spiritual confirmations aren’t valid, but yours are? I think it is hilarious how members of the LDS church so easily mock the beliefs of JW’s and many other religions as silly and nonsensical. It seems a bit hypocritical.

]]> By: Jon Miranda http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/11/dancing-through-the-sidebar-6/#comment-90668 Jon Miranda Tue, 14 Jul 2009 12:39:32 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6231#comment-90668 http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=7024344 Are people responsible also not to be so gullible? http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=7024344
Are people responsible also not to be so gullible?

]]> By: brjones http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/11/dancing-through-the-sidebar-6/#comment-90579 brjones Tue, 14 Jul 2009 01:06:40 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6231#comment-90579 #12 - The scriptures are fiction, but the ideas espoused in them are wrong. And those men whom you regard as prophets (those who actually existed) are also wrong. #12 – The scriptures are fiction, but the ideas espoused in them are wrong. And those men whom you regard as prophets (those who actually existed) are also wrong.

]]> By: Jon Miranda http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/11/dancing-through-the-sidebar-6/#comment-90575 Jon Miranda Tue, 14 Jul 2009 00:30:06 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6231#comment-90575 The scriptures are not wrong. The prophets are not wrong. To ignore prophetic counsel on this subject is to change the very ground you stand on. The scriptures are not wrong. The prophets are not wrong. To ignore prophetic counsel on this subject is to change the very ground you stand on.

]]> By: Dexter http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/11/dancing-through-the-sidebar-6/#comment-90554 Dexter Mon, 13 Jul 2009 21:46:45 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6231#comment-90554 Jon: You are wrong. Jon:

You are wrong.

]]> By: Clark http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/11/dancing-through-the-sidebar-6/#comment-90526 Clark Mon, 13 Jul 2009 19:06:16 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6231#comment-90526 RE: Orson Scott Card. Of course we're a tribe. We're the tribe of Ephraim. But the article offers several great examples of other "tribal" behavior, and while I don't normally agree with the man, I thought this particular column was compelling. Could mormons be considered an ethnicity like Jews? Or at least the Utah Mormons? (Maybe I should just go back and read the comments on 'what is a cultural mormon?...) RE: Orson Scott Card. Of course we’re a tribe. We’re the tribe of Ephraim. But the article offers several great examples of other “tribal” behavior, and while I don’t normally agree with the man, I thought this particular column was compelling.

Could mormons be considered an ethnicity like Jews? Or at least the Utah Mormons? (Maybe I should just go back and read the comments on ‘what is a cultural mormon?…)

]]> By: Nick Literski http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/11/dancing-through-the-sidebar-6/#comment-90493 Nick Literski Mon, 13 Jul 2009 15:54:51 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6231#comment-90493 #7: <i>Homosexuality and it’s acceptance does not build societies but ripens them for destruction.</i> Jon, please elaborate for us. Specifically, please explain to us the evidence upon which you have concluded that "homosexuality and it's [sic] acceptance" "ripens" a society "for destruction." #7:
Homosexuality and it’s acceptance does not build societies but ripens them for destruction.

Jon, please elaborate for us. Specifically, please explain to us the evidence upon which you have concluded that “homosexuality and it’s [sic] acceptance” “ripens” a society “for destruction.”

]]> By: Holden Caulfield http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/11/dancing-through-the-sidebar-6/#comment-90376 Holden Caulfield Mon, 13 Jul 2009 03:45:47 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6231#comment-90376 I'm going to pass commenting on #7. I don't want to ruin my Sunday evening karma. I’m going to pass commenting on #7. I don’t want to ruin my Sunday evening karma.

]]> By: Jon Miranda http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/11/dancing-through-the-sidebar-6/#comment-90367 Jon Miranda Mon, 13 Jul 2009 02:26:12 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6231#comment-90367 Society must not condone the deviancy of homosexuality. Homosexuality and it's acceptance does not build societies but ripens them for destruction. Society must not condone the deviancy of homosexuality. Homosexuality and it’s acceptance does not build societies but ripens them for destruction.

]]> By: J.Ro http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/11/dancing-through-the-sidebar-6/#comment-90360 J.Ro Mon, 13 Jul 2009 02:02:27 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6231#comment-90360 Favorite line out of all, coming from the "Placenta Helper" article: <i>If I ever kill a man in my own home, I am totally calling the placenta lady.</i> Favorite line out of all, coming from the “Placenta Helper” article:

If I ever kill a man in my own home, I am totally calling the placenta lady.

]]> By: brjones http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/11/dancing-through-the-sidebar-6/#comment-90304 brjones Sun, 12 Jul 2009 18:37:40 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6231#comment-90304 Sorry, I meant Jon. Sorry, I meant Jon.

]]> By: brjones http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/11/dancing-through-the-sidebar-6/#comment-90303 brjones Sun, 12 Jul 2009 18:35:59 +0000 http://mormonmatters.org/?p=6231#comment-90303 #1 - John, could you provide an example? #1 – John, could you provide an example?

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