Comments on: The Genius of Mormonism: Israel is Back, Baby! (POLL incl.)

By: George Elliott

George Elliott — Tue, 20 Oct 2009 00:28:47 +0000

Please consider this: the third “measure of meal” (mentioned in Matthew 13:33 and in Luke 13:21) is the Book of Mormon. The implications of that situation will cause many changes in all three religions.

By: Richard

Richard — Mon, 05 Oct 2009 17:35:34 +0000

How can there be a “literal gathering of Israel” unless those who are of Israel are identified? Patriarchal blessings is one way. Yet, why would there even be tribes if there was not some genetic differences between the tribes? 3 Nephi 16:7-13 and other scriptures predict a latter-day SHIFT– the Lord will turn against the Gentiles and bring again all the former blessings to his ancient covenant people Israel. Has this happened yet? Joseph Smith clearly taught the church he set up was indentified with the Gentiles and the fullness of the times of the Gentiles. But at some point the times of the Gentiles will be over. Are we to that time yet?

Richard

By: Ron M

Ron M — Sun, 06 Sep 2009 19:09:05 +0000

Chosenness! Right. A brilliant piece from “God on Trial” about choseneness. Incidentally my father who as in Patton’s infantry during WWII brought back one of those nazi belt buckles mentioned in this piece

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx7irFN2gdI&

By: bib bib

bib bib — Sun, 06 Sep 2009 10:48:27 +0000

The Orange Order of Northern Ireland and Scotland claim to be ‘british israelites’.

By: pjbrownie

pjbrownie — Wed, 22 Jul 2009 05:20:03 +0000

I have just concluded a pretty extensive study of the Old Testament with a particular emphasis on the promises to Israel in the latter days. The concepts of adoption into the House of Israel of Gentiles that were righteous were not nineteenth century inventions by Joseph, but a correlation to the prophecies outlined in the Old Testament, speicifiaclly Isaiah. Remember that Edom, Tyre, Egypt, Ammon, and Moab were considered cousins tot he Hebrews and in a real sense, Gentiles. They would be promised the gospel during the times of the gentiles following Christ’s death and resurrection. Those time during the restoration would then be fulfilled, the gentile era would end, and the House of Israel would re restored. There is little distinction between a Gentile and an Ephraimite by 600 BC, thus we are both Gentiles and of the House of Israel (if you take the British thing at face value). The blessings of watchmen were promised to Ephraim in Jeremiah in the last days, so it is not an arbitrary assignment. The process follows thus:

1. Apostasy by Israel, the northern tribes
2. Scattering of the norther tribes
3. Apostasy of Judah, house of David
4. Scattering of Judah
5. Gospel then goes to the Gentile nations
6. Gentiles apostatize
7. Gospel is restored to the Gentiles (house of Ephraim)
8. Fullness of the Gentiles ends when Jerusalem is in possession once again by Judah.
9. Gospel begins going to the House of Israel, Lamanites, Jews, and the other 10 tribes.
10. Gospel taken from the Gentiles (the gentile Babylonish culture of Ephraim is lost).
11. Gospel taken to the lost tribes who gather to America at the New Jerusalem, righteous of the Gentiles are fully grafted in.
12. Gospel restored to the Jews at the Mount of Olives
13. 10 Tribes return to Jerusalem
14. Gospel preached to the heathen nations (Japeth descendant nations)

This is all literally out of Isaiah. Joseph was following this template. Forgive me for not waxing cultural and being mroe doctrinal, but the distinguishing characteristic is needed.

By: hawkgrrrl

hawkgrrrl — Tue, 21 Jul 2009 19:11:30 +0000

RobertM – scary, I know.

By: RobertM

RobertM — Tue, 21 Jul 2009 18:20:34 +0000

Wow, Hawk. #33 just answered so many questions for me, but raised even more. Very interesting insight into your early developement. Heh!

By: hawkgrrrl

hawkgrrrl — Fri, 17 Jul 2009 22:04:40 +0000

cwc – my basis for the statement is actually a little odd. One of my childhood storybooks talked about the creation of Israel as a fulfillment of Zionism but from an American Christian perspective. The book was from mid-1950s (IIRC). It was a hand-me-down. I had some other very strange and interesting (very dated) books as a child – some science books that theorized that the moon was in fact made from a calcium-rich substance (essentially “green cheese” but rewritten in technospeak). I think this did wonders for my creativity, but put my scientific nature a little at a disadvantage.

By: Jeff Spector

Jeff Spector — Fri, 17 Jul 2009 12:49:30 +0000

The State of Israel was created primarily as reparations for the Holocaust and so the British could make their haste exit from the scene, which was becoming increasingly hard to manage. Think French: Vietnam.

By: crazywomancreek

crazywomancreek — Fri, 17 Jul 2009 04:17:27 +0000

Hawk- sorry, didn’t mean to sound confrontational- it’s just always so hard to tell when jumping into a new blog if one is stepping on toes, not observing conventionetc…
But yes, I disagree. Yes, the country was primarily Christian but I think Zionist or dispensation Christian is a huge stretch. Saying it “prompted” the creation of Israel seems insuppourtable, I can’t think of any mainstream historian who doesn’t chalk U.S. and British support up to political or financial motivation. It also seems to confuse pre-1948 Christians with modern “progressive dispensationalists” which is a fairly recent (mid 80’s) movement among evangelicals. This isn’t a huge area of interest for me – so if it isn’t for you either no worries about following up, I mainly wanted to understand if I was inderstanding you clearly. I was. I think we just disagree.

By: Aaron Reeves

Aaron Reeves — Thu, 16 Jul 2009 13:01:09 +0000

re 22: Or, maybe the poll results reflect a foreordained propensity of the tribe of ephraim to participate in the bloggernacle. But that was not in my patriarchal blessing so I could not be certain.

By: Jeff Spector

Jeff Spector — Thu, 16 Jul 2009 12:27:53 +0000

“This was partly prompted (IMO) by a Christian belief in Zionism.”

I think it needs to be a little more clear. Christians generally favored the creation and sustaining of the State of Israel because they believe it fulfills a prophecy of the last days scenario. It’s not that they love Jews that much so much as they want the second coming of Jesus to happen. They believe Israel must be there to accomplish that end.

By: hawkgrrrl

hawkgrrrl — Thu, 16 Jul 2009 04:52:19 +0000

CWC – sorry, been traveling. What I was saying is that American support was fundamental to the success of the creation of Israel (a democracy in the mid-east of all places). This was partly prompted (IMO) by a Christian belief in Zionism. The country was almost entirely Christian in 1948. It was one of the reasons Americans were so excited about Israel (other reasons existed as well). Do you disagree?

By: crazywomancreek

crazywomancreek — Thu, 16 Jul 2009 02:51:12 +0000

Am I missing something? Is there a reason you are not responding, Hawkgrrrl? Clue me in.

By: crazywomancreek

crazywomancreek — Wed, 15 Jul 2009 17:39:24 +0000

“Many Christian sects also believe in this, and it certainly prompted the creation of the state of Israel. ”

Eh? What? Are you saying that what prompted the creation of Israel was Christian sects who believed in Zionism?

By: hawkgrrrl

hawkgrrrl — Wed, 15 Jul 2009 16:45:41 +0000

Kristi, I’m glad you’ve followed your conscience. Perhaps time will grant you some perspective. In the meantime, bless your heart, and I wish you happiness.

By: AdamF

AdamF — Wed, 15 Jul 2009 14:59:15 +0000

I’ll second that. I’m definitely miserable.

Kristi, there are a lot better arguments against Mormonism, should you desire. Feel free to email me if you would like to know some of them. The one from Revelation you used just isn’t going to work very well. shenpawarrior@gmail.com

My best,

Adam

By: GBSmith

GBSmith — Wed, 15 Jul 2009 14:54:59 +0000

Kristi:

“My prayer is that your life is miserable until you realize that you are decieving yourself and others”

I was wondering why I wasn’t feeling one with the universe lately. Thanks.

By: Kate

Kate — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 20:42:54 +0000

Hawk (#10) – I suspect that the 61 votes but 5 commentors is an indication merely of the number of lurkers on the site

My PB placed me as “literal Ephraim,” with indication in the actual blessing that I have Jewish ancestry. Which is interesting to me, since I am unaware of such from my geneology. That doesn’t mean it isn’t there, however. My DH has Mannaseh, the only of his family to have that tribe. I know of lots of folks who have completely different tribes from their parents/siblings. I have no idea what any of it means, but I personally have never taken it to be a true “physical” designation.

By: Kristi

Kristi — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 19:42:46 +0000

I am not a Mormon. I am a Christian, but not a good one by any means. A couple of days ago, two Mormons came to my house. I mainly was trying to get them to go away. Since then I have been burdened to tell them the true message. I prayed that they would come back by my house, so I could tell them, but so far they have not come. I have been trying to get in contact with a Mormon so I could tell them. My prayer is that others may not be decieved. I don’t exactly know what Mormons believe. The people that came to my door said that the Book of Mormon was a continuation of the Bible. Lie. In Revelation 22:18-19, which is the true and inspired word of God, it says this: “For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book. And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.” Obviously the Holy Bible and the Book of Mormon are not the in the same book. You are being decieved! My prayer is that your life is miserable until you realize that you are decieving yourself and others. You really don’t believe in the one true God. Answer these questions: Are you a sinner? Do you believe that the Bible is the infallible Word of God? Do you understand that God sent his only son to die on a cross so that if you accept him, you can spend eternity with him? Have you asked Jesus to forgive you of your sins? How do you know He has forgiven you? No one does anything to gain salvation. “Works are not part of our salvation but a result of them”(CARM). Romans 4:5 – “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” Since no one does anything to gain salvation, how can it be taken away? It can’t. But that doesn’t mean go out and not do anything for God. I would like to have something to put at the feet of Jesus when I enter heaven. I have a challenge for the people who believe in the Book of Mormon instead of the Holy Bible which God wrote. If you don’t believe ALL of the Bible which includes Revelation 22:18-19- if you don’t believe now, you can believe at the Great White Throne.

By: Jeff Spector

Jeff Spector — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 12:53:50 +0000

#18,

“It’s hard to understand why they were chosen.”

Could it be that they were chosen because they wrote down that they were chosen?

Or, does God in fact, choose everyone, it is us who do not chose Him?

Or, is it that Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen? Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men,……
D&C 121:34 – 35)

Or, because they would not honor the One True God?

By: Aaron Reeves

Aaron Reeves — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 08:33:01 +0000

re 18: I agree. I even think our doctrine shows that it does not really matters to us because we can’t tell if we are adopted or not.

It seems that the 12 tribes thing was maybe supposed to be superseded in Christ’s message that we are all children of god ‘jew and gentile’. In fact if it were that important we might expect some discussion of what tribes gentiles would be in the Jerusalem council; but we only have the circumcision thing. However for whatever reason it was not dropped in the restoration. Maybe it is a less-painful idea than the curse of cain which people brought with them into the church; so it has persisted. Even though it is mentioned in the book of revelation I believe this is more symbolic of large numbers of covenant people rather than actually having separate tribes doing different work.

By: Rigel Hawthorne

Rigel Hawthorne — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 06:12:58 +0000

It’s hard to understand why they were chosen. Why were the children of Abraham given so much favor? What was so bad about being an Edomite, a Canaanite, a Moabite or a Samaritan? It seems totally unfair.

What is “genius” about the Mormon concept of Israel is that it takes the concept of being chosen and extends it to everyone ever born. Now those who were born and died without hearing of Israel and without an earthly opportunity to enter and keep the gospel covenant can be linked/sealed along with the entire human race. It restores fairness to the rules of the test of mortality.

Just as Joseph forgave his 10 brothers and did all in his power to serve them in spite of any offenses they committed, we have the privilege of serving in the three fold mission of the church “the rest of God’s children” as mentioned in #8.

I agree that it doesn’t really matter what tribe we come from. It seems that is the point of including the story of Ruth in the Old Testament in relationship to the lineage of Jesus Christ. Ruth WAS a Moabite.

I have a friend of Jewish descent living in the greater SLC area who wearies of zealous (or maybe just very friendly) LDS individual telling her that “we are just like you.” Her responses to them are rather blunt.

By: MH

MH — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 05:25:19 +0000

I’ve never been particularly crazy about the idea of being descended from the 12 tribes. 10 of them tried to kill Joseph, and I wouldn’t call them good role models. I never understood why they were “chosen.” It certainly was not due to their righteousness.

By: GBSmith

GBSmith — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 04:40:41 +0000

The whole business of British Israelism was discussed in Armand Mauss’ book “All Abraham’s Children”. It gave the British Empire a license to spread civilization and create an empire because the anglo saxon race was ordained by God. It began in the late 1700s by the writings of some clergy and caught on from there. The exteme is the Christian identity movement with neo nazis and on the other end are those who believe there’s a lineal connection to the tribes of Israel. I think Joseph Smith figured that it was easy to make people feel special if he could convince them they were chosen.