Exactly.

#19 – “The Book of Mormon does not teach the properity gospel”

Why, sure it does, with Jacob’s sermon its capstone. “…ye will seek [riches] with the intent to do good.” The Book of Mormon tells Latter-day Saints that they are not only going to prosper BECAUSE they are good, but that they are going to DO more good BY prospering. Kinda sucks the wind out of any kind of a voluntary poverty arm of the church.

Delete it or don’t delete it. Doesn’t matter to me. John is the man, regardless. Mormon Stories was the best thing I have ever gotten out of the internet. Countless mornings I would go for my walk listening to people discuss things that I could hear in no other forum.

That being said, this was in part a real-life illustration of why the church deals with its history the way it does, including the polygamy issue itself that was being discussed. The irony of the deletion, considering the topic of the thread, is compelling.

We like you unconditionally, John.

re 17 and 18:
This is actually a rather interesting thing to think about. What if it’s necessary for us to not treat exaltation as a reason to be righteous…but instead treat righteousness as its own end (and then exaltation is just the surprise at the end)?

re 20:
Dexter, between you and me (and I guess everyone who reads this comment, oops!), I too do not feel excellently about the deletion. At the same time, I understand why John would do this. I mean, John’s past includes a lot of alienation from the others in the Bloggernacle (and I would think that many of our pasts also include this). Would we want to risk more alienation for the post?

however…

re 21:
Vin, I do like the idea of a rewrite. But it’s a delicate issue to approach that needs lots of consideration and contemplation if it can work. Maybe we aren’t up to it.

People feel the way they do about Ballard’s comments and similar views by church leaders who think the church’s past is somehow not intimately connnected with its present whether or not the post exists on MM.

The Book of Mormon–and the Church–teaches the law of consecration, in which rich give generously to those in need and the poor receive with an attitude that if and when they can give, they will give. Paul and Moroni both teach us that charity, the pure love of Christ, is the highest attribute we can attain, more critical that consecration, which, if not motivated by love, profits us nothing.

The prosperity doctrine is a doctrine of greed, pride, and self-aggrandizement. It does not teach that some–through no fault of their own–will be poor even though they keep every commandment. Some who are sick or disabled will be poor. That is a fact of mortality. The Lord teaches “ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good

Rather, it’s about Mormon Matters. It’s about *our* reputation, especially with our peers in the Bloggernacle (some of whom might not even see us as peers in the ‘Nacle.) I think many others, especially outsiders to the MMatters way of things, would have come across that topic and decided it wasn’t very constructive or positive.

I understand the need to censor certain comments, but killing a whole topic because it may not reflect well on the church just furthers the 1984ish image of the church.

My Nigerian cousins strike again! This will line my inheritance, as long as I give them my bank information.

re 11:

While I do not deny the first part (since the scriptures do have this kind of “be good and you will receive” mentality), I’m wondering if the point is to overcome the second (e.g., the sense of entitlement)? It might be one of the most important lessons to learn, especially since if we don’t learn it, what will happen when we are exalted (that’s pretty darn “rich,” so to speak)?

Benjamin, I agree, of course. The thing is…it seems so…”likely” (as in, when you start to do well off, it seems likely to happen, whether spiritually or materially, that one will slip into pride). So, what’s the lesson that most of us keep failing?

re 2:

Bill, I see John D has already come to explain why the post disappeared, but I will say you’re right about the Prosperity Gospel (*grit teeth*) being in the BoM. You’re right; you have Lehi basically “setting the stage” for the Book of Mormon as early as 2 Nephi 4:4 with exactly as you said. So, this leads me to think that the problem with it not the prosperity…but rather that we generally “deal” with prosperity terribly (e.g., pride, less charity, etc.,)

re 3:

AndrewJDavis, that’s because I didn’t paste in verse 6. In verse 6, you find that:

And it came to pass in the *eighth year of the reign of the judges, that the people of the church began to wax proud, because of their exceeding riches, and their fine silks, and their fine-twined linen, and because of their many flocks and herds, and their gold and their silver, and all manner of precious things, which they had obtained by their industry; and in all these things were they lifted up in the pride of their eyes, for they began to wear very costly apparel.

So, to be sure, the pride problem is not just seeking to be rich, but rather when one has a certain perception of richness and buys into it. But indeed, you’re right in that prospering in the land can even involve non-material prosperity.

re 4, 6:

If I said we were trying a new experimental BCC mass moderation of subversive discussions, would you guys tattle on me. (Geez, I bet someone there is already reading this).

re 5:

Although with each of these scriptures, the want for money seems to simply be a one-two punch after getting some.

If ya’ll have ideas of a more constructive way to deal w/ it, I’m all ears.

But sorry for the reversal. I just want to be about constructive stuff. Solutions. I don’t want to decrease our power when we’ll want/need it most. That’s all.