Great post, Andrew.

Your in depth analysis of #37 and #21, please.

“I think we lose sight of our own myopia far too often.”

I agree. I think this is where our relationship with the Lord can really help us with our view of things. He can show us things and give us understanding in ways that no other can. So, at times where I hear things at church that I struggle with, or deal with challenging people (or just boring lessons), I remember the relationship I have with Him and that He is willing to open my mind, to help me become more compassionate, and to teach me how to love in ways that I can’t on my own. This makes dealing with all the rest worth it to me.

“Do we let our own issues get in the way of the point of the post?”

Absolutely! Just think how dull life would be and especially here at MM if none of us had issues!

I think you misunderstood what I meant, because I feel that we knew many things about coming to earth before we came here too. My point in that comment was that I think we knew as much as we could there, but we couldn’t understand the extent of this experience because our minds were not veiled there and that changes things here. In other words, I don’t think we realized how truly challenging it could be here not remembering the life before. We do agree much more than you realize on this subject, I think you just didn’t fully understand my comment.

I disagree with this idea, if we have agency, why wouldn’t that agency extend before birth? I believe we knew our parents very well before coming and knew exactly what strengths and weaknesses we would inherit/learn from them. We put ourselves in the situations in which we felt we could most grow and progress. I think we knew the challenges we would face and the contributions we would make to humanity around us. Some have excelled and overcome the challenges they put themselves in, others have failed. I also think we will be as much a judge of that as God will.

Without that agency, we could always blame God for the situation we grew up in and not simply take responsibility for our own decisions and the life we led.

Sorry, I come from the viewpoint that the Gospel and Church are more one and the same. With the exception that the Church is tangible and is subject to mistakes in application etc. The Gospel is intangible and is subject to misinterpetation etc.

What is it about the Church, specifically, that concerns you?

Perhaps “our own issues” is, the point of the post – which may have flawed questions to begin with.

I smile when I type that, but it is a very similar question at the most fundamental level.

You’re right. Thanks for bringing that point up.

Hi Jen–

I agree, I don’t know how we could have known “exactly”.

Actually, I did see your comment but got sidetracked. I think the Lord has made it quite clear what He expects from us as members of the church. It is a great responsibility, yet it is also a great blessing to be able to have the gospel and to share it with those who desire it in their lives.

“But Jen, I do think a further look at the interplay between the “noble and great ones” and “weak things” arguments would be interesting.”

I agree. Maybe that is why it says the weak things “of the world”……

Jared-

BTW, excellent points. I think it is true that we all had a choice about coming here, but I don’t necessarily believe we knew exactly what we were getting into in the sense that we didn’t realize how hard it would be at times. I think even the Savior didn’t realize just how hard it would be.

Some days “gory” is just the right word. LOL

“LDS doctrine of the degrees of gory, is a glorious doctrine”

I haven’t heard of the degrees of “gory”…..could you expound?

Those who comment on MM represent the a broad spectrum of belief and unbelief. I like that–It allows a variety of perspectives to be seen.

As I read the various comments, I realized that there is an under laying assumption that I feel is a source of confusion.

The assumption is that if one is born into a family that can provide material and emotional plenty then they all must be “superior” spirits compared to those who are born deprived of these blessings to one degree or another.

This assumption is a one dimensional view of LDS doctrine. There are other aspects that need to be viewed in order to have an accurate understanding.

For example, as I understand LDS doctrine, children who die before the age of eight inherit the celestial kingdom. This being the case, then those children who are born into the worst possible situations and die prior to age eight are heirs of the celestial kingdom. This is a huge number when looked at in thousands of years.

With that said, we now have both ends of a continuum, those born in the best possible circumstances, and those born into the worst. LDS doctrine allows for both to be heirs of the celestial kingdom.

What about all those who are born into circumstances in between the extremes? What about those who are born mentally handicap? They are also heirs of the celestial kingdom. What about those who never hear the “gospel” law (people of all faiths or no faith at all)? They come under the atonement because where no law is given, no punishment is given (2 Nephi 9:25). It appears that many of them will be heirs to the celestial kingdom.

Without attempting to fill in the complete spectrum it becomes evident that the celestial kingdom is a very large kingdom, in fact it may be the largest of the three degrees of glory.

Another aspect of LDS doctrine is that there is agency. This means that no one is forced into a situation in mortality. Let me repeat, no one is forced into mortality. Anyone born into this world does it knowing full well what their getting into. Birth is by choice.

Lastly, D&C 137:7-9 teaches that the Lord will judge a perfect judgment. There will be no mistakes.

God is love, and all that He does is to bless His children to become as He is–a God. Not all of us will choose to follow Him, but we have the opportunity. In order to follow Him, we need to have experience (D&C 122), and in order to know the sweet we must experience the bitter. There is no other way.

LDS doctrine of the degrees of gory, is a glorious doctrine. I hope this brief explanation will help those who discuss LDS doctrine, whether one believes it or not, to do it with the total perspective in mind.

Now that the Church is becoming more removed from its insular origins I think we’re starting to see more interfaith activity and dialogue that recognizes this, but we do have a delicate balance in not focusing so much on our “one true Church” claims that we personally fail to internalize the value of others’ faith and contributions.

But Jen, I do think a further look at the interplay between the “noble and great ones” and “weak things” arguments would be interesting.

Holden- I am trying to help bring the topic of the post back, so I will make this short.

“I no longer believe in the church but I do believe that *most* of us have it easy when comparing ourselves against those who not only live elsewhere today but elsewhere thousands of years ago, although I wasn’t confining my comments to the US since I believe we have foreign posters on MM.”

I understand what you are saying, I just don’t like the idea of comparing suffering because I don’t think it can be done fairly or adequately. We don’t have enough information to assess levels of suffering and many people who suffer greatly do it in silence with no outward indications.

Also, I am not familiar with your situation in letting go of your faith. You may have written about it in another post, but I don’t recall reading it so I am in the dark in relation to your life experience.

Back to the topic of this thread…..